Female vs male character attributes and skills

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Manwich
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Re: Female vs male character attributes and skills

Post by Manwich »

Ugh, this topic is extremely upsetting. Saying men are stronger than women is NOT sexist, it is true. Sure some women are stronger than some men, but no one is saying that ALL men are stronger than ALL women here. It is entirely possible to build a strong female fighter without the 1 strength bonus so this system is consistent with your very perceptive example of women in the U.S. military. Sorry for ranting a bit here, I just hate it when people make accusations of sexism (or racism) when they really don't understand what it means to be sexist or racist. This system isn't going to make or break this game, but acknowledging genetically determined differences between men and women which are backed up by countless statistical data is not sexist!
Anyways, I always thought they didn't have men's balance beam because of the cahones.
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Re: Female vs male character attributes and skills

Post by realmzmaster »

If you are comparing the average male and female then men on average are stronger. Females on average seem to be more flexible and tend to have more stamina. Yes, there are execptions. But exceptions should be compared to other exceptions. Example, a female weight lifter is going to out lift the average male if that is your comparison. But to be fair you must compare the female weight lifter to the male weight lifter. You have to compare apples to apples not oranges. Compare the female gymnast to the male gymnast. The female has more agility.

You can also take into account body build and race. To say there is no physical differences between the "races" is to deny the obvious (and I do not mean skin color). I am comparing body builds. This is why you have different races getting different bonuses or minuses. The average orc is going to be stonger than the average elf.

If you are going to play a certain class, you have to meet certain requirements and may get bonuses or minuses for that class. Example a paladin must have a certain strength, charisma, wisdom ect scores. A paladin must be lawful good.

There will always be differences. What fun is it if we all role play the same character type? Role palying is about the differences.
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Re: Female vs male character attributes and skills

Post by Evnissyen »

Umm... first, let's get rid of the "race" issue. Orcs and elves are not races, they're species. I do not care what Gary Gygax might've written in whatever edition of D&D back in whatever year.

Second, I for one am not accusing anybody of sexism. All I'm saying is that your choice of whether to play a male or female should not determine your statistics. A girl might prefer to watch an attractive guy walking around and beating things up and doing stuff, while a guy might prefer watching an attractive girl do these things. Should that determine what characteristics you have? It should be up to the player himself or herself what he or she wants to do with their own character. When I play a CRPG I'll sometimes play a guy and I'll sometimes play a girl... but when I play with party scenarios I always make the leader a guy, because that obviously represents me. And I prefer to make that character resemble me as much as possible. This means avoiding the huge-musclebound guy in favor of the meek-looking guy, the conniving-looking guy, the insane-looking guy... whatever. Then the statistics I choose will be based on what I want.

If you're really going to implement strengths and weaknesses based on which gender a player chooses, then you should also provide a roster of types. So girls or guys who prefer a muscular girl (I'm sure this would've been Michelangelo's choice) can choose that and get the appropriate bonuses. A girl or guy who prefers a scrawnier but calculating guy can make that choice as well, and receive the appropriate bonuses. But to make a blanket determination of any sort, just based on average statistics, does not improve the versatility of gameplay or game appeal, I don't think.

At any rate, as I said: I prefer to make up my own mind about my stats, and those stats might even "defy" the gender or the character "type" I've chosen.
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Re: Female vs male character attributes and skills

Post by BasiliskWrangler »

Evnissyen wrote:I prefer to make up my own mind about my stats, and those stats might even "defy" the gender or the character "type" I've chosen.
Well, the +1 STR for men and +1 DEX for women is doing nothing but highlighting a physical feature that is, in most every instance, true when comparing similar body types across gender lines. A meek-looking guy could still probably lift more than a meek-looking girl, and a clumsy girl is still likely to be more graceful and balanced than a clumsy guy.

The small +1 attribute bonus isn't going to make or break a character. Your meek character with a base Strength of 10 isn't going to be transformed into a body-builder by selecting "male" and getting that bonus point, bumping his Strength to 11. Again, this is a small bonus designed to highlight the common physical differences that can often be identified between genders.

The truth is you can still easily have a muscle-bound female or a dexterous male from the start of the game by choosing a good roll and allotting your extra attribute points accordingly, just like in Book I. Remember this is a BONUS, not a PENALTY....which means gender selection has no negative effects on your character design.
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Re: Female vs male character attributes and skills

Post by Jude »

As a woman, I am disappointed by the different stats for the sexes being programmed into the game. If a player perceives differences between the sexes and wants to represent them in the stats s/he gives the characters, fine. Let them play the game the way they want to. I hate when the game forces sexual stereotypes on me, whether by forcing certain classes to be a certain sex or by having artificial sexual gender bonuses.

Bad decision.

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Re: Female vs male character attributes and skills

Post by BasiliskWrangler »

Jude wrote:Bad decision.
Wow. So, you want no bonuses whatsoever rather than a free attribute point that most anthropologists and biologists would agree with?? I am not sure I understand why. :?

We make games for the people, so if the majority doesn't want a bonus, we'll remove it. Won't hurt my feelings! :D Time for a poll(?) or does everyone just want to continue to drop opinions here in this thread?
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Re: Female vs male character attributes and skills

Post by Scryler »

I am a feminist...and have been for a long time. I don't have a problem with gender based points in strength and dexterity. I think I would have a problem, though, if the skills were gender based. Overall, physical characteristics are different between the sexes, generally. If attributes that are not physical characteristics (intelligence, empathy, etc.) and skills are gender based, then this is where, IMO, stereotyping enters in.

I don't think a poll is necessary. Others may disagree. However, I think polls can be manipulated. Arguments, IMO, are more persuasive.
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Re: Female vs male character attributes and skills

Post by Unclever title »

Nothing is happening in terms of gender restriction in classes. And these are not "Artificial" sexual gender bonuses, these are mild bonuses based upon real life differences observed in statistics over time. In real life the physical differences between men and women are greater than these simple +1 bonuses.

Though it is unfair to judge a single person by a stereotype, some stereotypes are not unfounded.

I still stand by my exceptional person thing earlier, but I'm perfectly fine with these bonuses. If I had to vote I'd vote pro.

As for polls... only if it is a pretty long one given plenty of attention on the forums, best if endless actually, especially considering that in terms of game design this is a very simple thing to change.
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Re: Female vs male character attributes and skills

Post by Dragonlady »

If there were a poll, I'd say keep the st/dex +1. It won't make any difference in the long run. You can put all your level up pts in st if that's what you want or whereever. Shrug.
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Re: Female vs male character attributes and skills

Post by devinv »

You could make male characters have a +1 to fall on their own sword and it wouldn't bother me; it's 1 frickin' point, the smallest change possible. I support the +1 because I support anything that adds to the variety of characters you can make, even in this small way.

We make games for the people, so if the majority doesn't want a bonus, we'll remove it. Won't hurt my feelings! :D Time for a poll(?) or does everyone just want to continue to drop opinions here in this thread?[/quote]
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Re: Female vs male character attributes and skills

Post by Jude »

BasiliskWrangler wrote:
Jude wrote:Bad decision.
Wow. So, you want no bonuses whatsoever rather than a free attribute point that most anthropologists and biologists would agree with?? I am not sure I understand why. :?

We make games for the people, so if the majority doesn't want a bonus, we'll remove it. Won't hurt my feelings! :D Time for a poll(?) or does everyone just want to continue to drop opinions here in this thread?
I am assuming that that "free" (although already assigned) attribute point will let you (if you are lucky in your "roll") make that attribute 1 point higher than the maximum you could get in other skills. Why not just give everyone a free point or two that they can add where they want or skip it altogether rather than have a sexual difference? That would add more enjoyment to the game, I think, by allowing the player to customize the character to her/his preference.

Maybe I am overreacting from your point of view, but I am so sick of having men make excuses why women have to be treated differently (and in many cases, are not even allowed to participate unless it is in a separate women's group--like sports).

Remember, in Eschalon Book I, the default character was, of course, male, even though I didn't find any reason that it needed to be, and there were several portraits--all male. If you needed to choose one sex because of the labor involved to make the sprites of the figure(s), why not choose a woman? This was a disappointment, but you assured us that in Eschalon Book II, we could choose a male or female character. Now we are getting differences added in that, as far as I can tell, are not necessary for gameplay, but are only there to propagate sexual stereotypes.

It's your game, do as you will. I may buy it anyway, since I like RPGs. I just hope you aren't going to make the story different for the female character, basing on her being raped or not being allowed to rescue someone who is supposed to be a romantic "conquest"... :(
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Re: Female vs male character attributes and skills

Post by BasiliskWrangler »

Jude wrote:I just hope you aren't going to make the story different for the female character, basing on her being raped or not being allowed to rescue someone who is supposed to be a romantic "conquest"... :(
Er, no. Not only is this offensive, it's also just a bad plot line.

I think another person mentioned a concern over limiting skills by gender (huh? ...this will never happen) or concerns over changing the bonus to reflect intellectual differences between genders (seriously, I don't get this either...it won't ever happen). Look, I understand that many people don't know me or the others that help design the game, but there is no one here that would ever suggest any sort of bias or limitation based on gender or race. The shape of your genitalia does not make you smarter or better with certain skills.

This is a bonus designed to show that a larger body mass tends to make an individual a bit stronger; a smaller body mass tends to offer the individual better balance and nimbleness. This is a fact regardless of your gender. However, since biology has determined that men tend to be larger than women, we do in fact see these differences in our real world (i.e., the Olympics).

The aforementioned bonus is meant to reflect physiological differences, not gender differences.
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Re: Female vs male character attributes and skills

Post by realmzmaster »

Why don't we forget about male/female and have an amorphic representation. Why do we have species ("races")? We can all be blobs.

Why do we care if the portrait or our character is male or female? If there is no preceivable difference in their attributes? The reason we want male/female characters is because we want an avatar that represents us or an avatar that is the opposite of us. We have different species ("races"), because we want to role play differences.

Trolls are suppose to be less intelligent on average than elfs. So we get to role play a character who may or may not be less intelligent than ourselves.

Are we saying there are no physiological differences between body builds and genders of different species? If that were the case weight lifters would be running as fast as sprinters? Physics belies that assumption, because the more mass an object has the greater amount of energy must be exerted to move it. You will not see a weight lifter beating a sprinter at running and will not see a sprinter outlifting a weight lifter on average.

Having said that, if people do not want gender differences that is fine by me. The one point difference in the long run makes no difference. A difference that makes no difference is no difference.

Why have differences in species? if you have no difference in gender?
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Re: Female vs male character attributes and skills

Post by jinnes »

In my opinion, the reason NOT to do gender-based stat bonuses is that those stat bonuses reinforce prejudices about gender-based limitations. I know it's only +1, I know on average men are stronger in the real world. I don't dispute that. But when you strip it all away, you are left with the fact that this work of art, this piece of intellectual property -- Eschalon Book II -- is telling me that men are stronger than women. Is that what you want your work to say to someone, BW? Especially in the first 5 minutes of play (char creation)?

I think it's worth noting that D&D -- which has been brought up in this thread -- does NOT have gender-based stat differences anymore, and hasn't for quite some time. They realized that the political ramifications of a gender-based stat difference are inappropriate for the messages about self-empowement, about choice, about individual excellence that they want to convey.

And realmzmaster, the reason to handle genders and races differently in this context is simple. The genders are the ones from the real world and therefore have political implications. The races are fantasy races and don't. As a thought experiment, imagine replacing "elf" and "troll" with "african-american" and "caucasian." How would you then feel about race-based stat differences? Who is stronger? Who is smarter?

Having gender based stat differences is just sexist. Eschalon is not a work of statistical anthropology. It is a work of art and therefore any statement made in it is the responsiblity of its creator to defend.
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Re: Female vs male character attributes and skills

Post by Evnissyen »

Yes. What Jinnes said.

And I'll add that if I had to reduce this all to one question, it would be this: Why are these bonuses so important?

You say it's only an inconsequential 1 point. Which suggests that the bonuses are symbolic. So, what do they symbolize? Well... differentiation, of course. Separation. This is sociopolitical territory that I don't think belongs in a CRPG unless it's one of the expressed intentions of that CRPG to explore sociopolitical territory.

Also, if that 1% is so inconsequential, then why even have it?

Yes, if you want the bonus to be meaningful then make it 2%. But if you do this, remember that you will then be making that differentiation, between how each gender is treated, a matter of true consequence in terms of gameplay.

Sure it's true that in real life there's a relationship between body mass and other physical characteristics and capabilities. But... Eschalon is not real life. To me: The difference between playing a male or female is purely psychological. It has nothing to do with the gameplay, and in my opinion it shouldn't have anything to do with the gameplay.

Also: Okay, so it's a bonus and there're no penalties. But when there're only two choices: the very lack of bonus for Dex or Str is, in the end, effectively identical to a penalty.

I stick with my original statement that I prefer to arrange my own statistics as I see fit. No preset bonuses (or perceived penalties) are necessary, or even desired. I do not want the game telling me how I should arrange my character, on the basis of whatever specific portrait and figure I choose.
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