COMPREHENSIVE Book III 'Wishlist' (List form)

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Enterian
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Re: COMPREHENSIVE Book III 'Wishlist' (List form)

Post by Enterian »

blatherbeard wrote:Personally i think all those ideas would kind of ruin my gameplay as there are some baddies i have NOT been able to defeat unless i did run away and rest.
Yeah I agree on that one, I ran away to another map quite a few times :D
But I don't think it'll be in the next game, you'd need to process npc's that aren't even in the currently loaded level. but, who knows..
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Re: COMPREHENSIVE Book III 'Wishlist' (List form)

Post by IJBall »

Good points...
Jedi_Learner wrote:I have a couple of thoughts about feats:
  • When you reach 10 points in a particular weapon skill it takes 70 turns for the feat to become available again after use. One point afterwards removes 3 turns off the cooldown. When you reach 32 points in a particular weapon skill the cooldown is capped at 5 turns. Does anyone think the cooldown after using a feat should be longer?
The funny thing is I think the 'cooldown' time is too long at the start of the process, but I'd agree it's probably too short at the other end.

Maybe Feats at Level 10 should start with a 40 or 50-turn 'cooldown', and then only improve 1-2 turns for each level above that, with a 'cooldown cap' at once every 10-15 turns, or something?...
Jedi_Learner wrote:
  • When using a feat you always connect with your target and there is no reason not to use the POWER combat mode for maximum damage. Does anyone think that when using a feat it should be treated like a normal attack and thus be allowed a chance to miss?
This is like Demon Oil, right? - Demon Oil always 'hits'?

I don't really have any ideas here - I think if Feats could 'miss' a significant percentage of the time they'd be a lot less useful, but having them not miss makes them too powerful. Maybe there could just be a "small" 'flat' chance that a Feat could "miss" - like 5% (or 10%)?...

Edit: The other possibility, which I'd probably be in favor of is disallowing use of the "POWER" mode when executing a 'Feat' attack - a Feat should just be a 'straight-up' attack with no POWER bonus allowed.
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Re: COMPREHENSIVE Book III 'Wishlist' (List form)

Post by Necromis »

or add that 30% penalty as a chance to miss that you get from using power. Like your 5% thought about missing.
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Re: COMPREHENSIVE Book III 'Wishlist' (List form)

Post by SpottedShroom »

IJBall wrote: The funny thing is I think the 'cooldown' time is too long at the start of the process, but I'd agree it's probably too short at the other end.
I would say that HP/MP regeneration have the same problem. Early on you can't tell the difference a few points makes, but the improvement curve gets very steep near the end. You could argue Dodge and Mercantile are similar, too, though it takes prohibitively long to get to their game-breaking sweet spots.
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Re: COMPREHENSIVE Book III 'Wishlist' (List form)

Post by KillingMoon »

Jedi_Learner wrote:When you reach 10 points in a particular weapon skill it takes 70 turns for the feat to become available again after use. One point afterwards removes 3 turns off the cooldown. When you reach 32 points in a particular weapon skill the cooldown is capped at 5 turns. Does anyone think the cooldown after using a feat should be longer?
5 turns seems ridiculously short, I agree. I've never reached those 5 turns, but perhaps the progression could be different: First 5 points invested after gaining feat each take 3 turns away, next 10 points each take 2 turns away, after that just 1 turn gain per point.
If the minimum of 5 turns remains, it would then still take 55 levels to reach that with this progression.
Jedi_Learner wrote:When using a feat you always connect with your target and there is no reason not to use the POWER combat mode for maximum damage. Does anyone think that when using a feat it should be treated like a normal attack and thus be allowed a chance to miss?
From a balance point of view I think that would make sense, especially for the stronger feats. Triple or Quadruple damage, like you get for some, is a lot, you can pick your moment to use your feat, you can get your feat already at first level up (save 5 points at setup), add 30% for power mode and you understand some players' strategy completely evolves around using the feat.

It may be toned down a little, but I prefer to look at it per weapon. Throwing Weapons' Volley is already quite weak, as it lets fly a random number of projectiles of which only one is guaranteed to hit. Already it's a waste of ammunition most of the time.
But in general I've never quite understood the guaranteed hit. For most weapons it may go, well, in my opinion. With the Masterful Riposte I would prefer to keep the parry part as a guarantee, but the initial strike may miss.
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Re: COMPREHENSIVE Book III 'Wishlist' (List form)

Post by Delfino »

I read through the list and didn't see anything like this... not sure how much other people would love the idea.

How about having two or three options for how you want to generate your character?

Option 1 would be point buy, basically the exact same as in Books 1 and 2. You roll 1d8+6 (generating a random number between 7 and 14) for all 8 stats, and then get a bucketload of points to spend on increasing them. One starting skill is determined by your title, and then you can spend a bunch of skill points however you see fit.

Option 2, which I am most interested in, would be a more randomized way of determining your starting stats. For all 8 stats, you roll 2d12 (generating a random number between 2 and 24, with a bell curve that makes extremely high and low results unlikely) but you get no points to spend on your rolls-- you have to work with what you get. You choose your class and axiom normally, spending skill points as you see fit, but obviously some choices will be impractical based on your rolls.

Option 3 would be almost a completely new game-- everything about your character is randomly generated. You would just click some sort of 'MAKE MY CHARACTER' button, and then poof, you're in the game. You wouldn't know the first thing about your character until you looked at your char sheet for the first time. The game would roll 2d12 for all your stats, and then choose a random axiom, class and origin, and buy one rank each in a bunch of random skills (spending any leftover points on your class-granted skill).

As I said, I'm mostly interested in Option 2... but option 3 could be very interesting, especially as a challenge game type. :D

"Champion of the Random: Play as a randomly generated character. You are only allowed to spend skill points on the skills you started with at level 1"

Here's the math, if anyone is concerned about balance issues:

1d8+6 comes to an average roll of 10.5
10.5, multiplied by 8 stats, is 84
84, plus 15 or 20 bonus points, comes out to 99 or 104 total stat points

2d12 comes to an average roll of 13.0
13, multiplied by 8 stats, is 104

that said, with 2d12 there would be more incentive to just sit there rolling your stats over and over again all day until you got all 20's or above... which is my idea of a day well-spent. :twisted:
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Re: COMPREHENSIVE Book III 'Wishlist' (List form)

Post by Kreador Freeaxe »

Delfino wrote:I read through the list and didn't see anything like this... not sure how much other people would love the idea.

How about having two or three options for how you want to generate your character?

Option 1 would be point buy, basically the exact same as in Books 1 and 2. You roll 1d8+6 (generating a random number between 7 and 14) for all 8 stats, and then get a bucketload of points to spend on increasing them. One starting skill is determined by your title, and then you can spend a bunch of skill points however you see fit.

Option 2, which I am most interested in, would be a more randomized way of determining your starting stats. For all 8 stats, you roll 2d12 (generating a random number between 2 and 24, with a bell curve that makes extremely high and low results unlikely) but you get no points to spend on your rolls-- you have to work with what you get. You choose your class and axiom normally, spending skill points as you see fit, but obviously some choices will be impractical based on your rolls.

Option 3 would be almost a completely new game-- everything about your character is randomly generated. You would just click some sort of 'MAKE MY CHARACTER' button, and then poof, you're in the game. You wouldn't know the first thing about your character until you looked at your char sheet for the first time. The game would roll 2d12 for all your stats, and then choose a random axiom, class and origin, and buy one rank each in a bunch of random skills (spending any leftover points on your class-granted skill).

As I said, I'm mostly interested in Option 2... but option 3 could be very interesting, especially as a challenge game type. :D

"Champion of the Random: Play as a randomly generated character. You are only allowed to spend skill points on the skills you started with at level 1"

Here's the math, if anyone is concerned about balance issues:

1d8+6 comes to an average roll of 10.5
10.5, multiplied by 8 stats, is 84
84, plus 15 or 20 bonus points, comes out to 99 or 104 total stat points

2d12 comes to an average roll of 13.0
13, multiplied by 8 stats, is 104

that said, with 2d12 there would be more incentive to just sit there rolling your stats over and over again all day until you got all 20's or above... which is my idea of a day well-spent. :twisted:
It's an interesting idea, probably for a different game. You start to set up too big a barrier to the player actually just getting started with all those options.

Also, 2d12 would lead to too high a standard deviation, I think. Something like 4d6 would be better. However, experience shows that most players like the opportunity to customize the character to what they want at the time.
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Re: COMPREHENSIVE Book III 'Wishlist' (List form)

Post by Necromis »

that brings up the option of a flat base for all stats and a set number of free points that can be used to raise those stats with a cap on how high. Like the 5 pts for a skill per level. Lets you have more options of customizing your character or min/maxing depending on your playing style. That kinda brings out a thought I was thinking. Why isn't there a charisma type stat that effects your reactions and negotiations with people. I would like to see a charming person get a better rate on items and a more un-savory person get penalties to encounters with NPCs.
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Re: COMPREHENSIVE Book III 'Wishlist' (List form)

Post by Delfino »

Kreador Freeaxe wrote:It's an interesting idea, probably for a different game. You start to set up too big a barrier to the player actually just getting started with all those options.


I think you're right about setting up a barrier to new players. What if, after you beat the game for the first time, a little message window pops up and says:

"Congratulations! You have just completed the third and final book of Eschalon! However, the adventure does not need to end here...
You have unlocked new character generation methods..."

and then a brief explanation of what the new method(s) are and how they are different from regular character generation. This way, you add to the game's (already high) replay value, plus this would be a fairly easy way to give people the 'New Game Plus' option that a lot of people are asking for. New players booting up the game for the first time would only be able to create their characters with the basic 1d8+6 method.
Kreador Freeaxe wrote:Also, 2d12 would lead to too high a standard deviation, I think. Something like 4d6 would be better. However, experience shows that most players like the opportunity to customize the character to what they want at the time.
4d6 would be fine by me :D Mostly what I'm looking for is just not having the ability to spend any 'points' on my ability scores (skills are fine).

My friend loaned me a very old Dungeons and Dragons game for the GBA called 'Eye of the Beholder'. It's a terrible game, and I recommend it to no-one, but the most fun part of it by far is rolling up the statistics for your characters, and seeing how many 18's you can get on a single character sheet. For some reason my friend and I both find the process of repeatedly pressing a 'reroll' button for half an hour to be fantastic entertainment.

I showed book 1 to this friend and he wasn't too interested... but if book 3 included a feature like this, I think you would sell at least one extra copy because of it. :wink:
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Re: COMPREHENSIVE Book III 'Wishlist' (List form)

Post by SpottedShroom »

Delfino wrote: My friend loaned me a very old Dungeons and Dragons game for the GBA called 'Eye of the Beholder'. It's a terrible game, and I recommend it to no-one, but the most fun part of it by far is rolling up the statistics for your characters, and seeing how many 18's you can get on a single character sheet. For some reason my friend and I both find the process of repeatedly pressing a 'reroll' button for half an hour to be fantastic entertainment.
Eye of the Beholder is a great game! The GBA port is probably garbage, but the original for DOS is a classic.
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Re: COMPREHENSIVE Book III 'Wishlist' (List form)

Post by Kreador Freeaxe »

Delfino wrote:My friend loaned me a very old Dungeons and Dragons game for the GBA called 'Eye of the Beholder'. It's a terrible game, and I recommend it to no-one, but the most fun part of it by far is rolling up the statistics for your characters, and seeing how many 18's you can get on a single character sheet. For some reason my friend and I both find the process of repeatedly pressing a 'reroll' button for half an hour to be fantastic entertainment.

I showed book 1 to this friend and he wasn't too interested... but if book 3 included a feature like this, I think you would sell at least one extra copy because of it. :wink:
Well, you can press the little image of the dice and reroll your stats in this game as often as you like to see how many 14s you can get. :)
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Re: COMPREHENSIVE Book III 'Wishlist' (List form)

Post by KillingMoon »

Kreador Freeaxe wrote:Well, you can press the little image of the dice and reroll your stats in this game as often as you like to see how many 14s you can get. :)
I once got all 14's except one. Of course, upon pressing 'start game' the game crashed...
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Re: COMPREHENSIVE Book III 'Wishlist' (List form)

Post by Kreador Freeaxe »

KillingMoon wrote:
Kreador Freeaxe wrote:Well, you can press the little image of the dice and reroll your stats in this game as often as you like to see how many 14s you can get. :)
I once got all 14's except one. Of course, upon pressing 'start game' the game crashed...
hehehehehehe :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: COMPREHENSIVE Book III 'Wishlist' (List form)

Post by IJBall »

Update (12/13/11): OK, I've just updated the wishlist to include:
  • Added a request to improve the Thrown Weapons Skill & Feat, as per the discussion in the recent new thread in the Book III forum.
  • Added a request for the idea of being able to find (regular & Jagged) Stones with the Forage Skill
  • Added a request to allow for more customizability of the Player's Avatar (e.g. more color choices!) as per the recent discussion here; also revised/reworded the wishlist entry on more character "portraits"
  • If high level in a Combat Skill acts like a Lore 'bonus' for ID'ing certain weapons (types), shouldn't high level in a Magick Skill act like a Lore 'bonus' for ID'ing spell scrolls?!
  • Added a request to bring back Merchant 'set slots' (i.e. in Book I, merchants would always carry certain items in stock, but that seemed to be done away with in Book II - I'd like to see the return of Merchant 'set slots' in Book III...)
  • Added a request for the return of Barrea[n] Mercenaries in Book III!
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Re: COMPREHENSIVE Book III 'Wishlist' (List form)

Post by IJBall »

Jedi_Learner wrote:I think merchant 'set slots' are in Book II IJBall. For example Eleanise in Eastwillow will always sell an Elixir of Cure Ailment.
I can definitely believe that. (So I may reword that entry in the Wishlist next time I update it...)

But, if so, then they were definitely under-utilized in Book II. I definitely prefer Book I's approach on this score.
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