Excellent post on Quarter To Three

[BasiliskWrangler]

Here is a post that every PC gamer should read. It's from the one of the producers of Titan Quest, whose company just shut down because they do not have the funds to continue in the industry. He rails on piracy, reviewers who don't do their job, and the overall difficulties of creating a PC game. It's really a must-read post for all indie developers and people who enjoy PC gaming.

http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk ... hp?t=42663

[Saxon1974]

I saw that on the RPGCodex, very interesting.

It does seem like the PC is at a big disadvantage when trying to compete with consoles over piracy and standardization of hardware for sure....there are just so many different hardware configurations out there now that I can see that being quite a pain.

I wonder how true his piracy comment is? Is it really at 80% piracy rate? And of that number how many people that pirated the game and liked it actually went and bought the game?

Being an honorable sort I dont pirate any games, plus I figure it only hurts the type of games I love to not reward the developer for making a good game.

That said, it still makes me wonder if it really is a serious problem or not. On the RPGCodex he is getting bashed by posters saying stuff like "Well, if he has made a good game and not a crappy one then maybe those who downloaded would have bought the game if they liked it", while I agree with this to an extent, I am suspicious of how many pirate downloaders actually go and pay money for a game they already stole. I bet there are some, but I bet there is a large number that dont.

So, my feeling is it definitely hurts game developers on the PC. It's sad really, because if you are a fan of PC RPG's or even Action RPG's and want to see more quality games made you are only hurting yourself by helping with the destruction of the Genre..

I sure hope PC gaming can survive, because its my biggest hobby.

[Feidb]

Wish I could say I feel sorry for them but I have to agree with that one reviewer that said they shot themselves in the foot with their copy protection. If they'd just bothered to put a message on there saying it crashed because of copy protection, maybe those that stole it wouldn't have given it such bad reviews.

I do sympathize with them for the pirating issue though. It's just weird that people were ripping it off even before it was released. Was it the beta testers that did it? Or who?

I looked at the game when it came out but immediately lost interest when I saw it was that damn isometric third person perspective. In 3-D I just hate it. Almost all the games out there use that perspective and that is why I don't play any of them.

Yeah, Eschalon is that perspective, but it's 2-D and doesn't have AI so I can tolerate it. Old school!

Now if Titan Quest had been a first person turn-based party type of game, I'd be more upset.

[Rollor]

Wasn't titan quest just another diablo clone?

I wonder which of these is greater:

a) People who would have normally pirated the game but were deterred by the copy-protection, so they bought it instead

or

b) People who would have normally bought the game but were deterred by reports from pirates that it was buggy and crashed a lot, so they pirated it instead (or avoided it completely)

That's a nice question i think. I don't think over 90 % pirates games in europe that sounds really really high. I still have freinds who haven't got a clue about how to even download a song let alone a game and getting it to work.
I'm not saying piracy isn't a factor. I do believe alot of potential buyers are spending there money on hardware instead of software.

[txa1265]

There is a nice set of articles over at Twenty-sided (Shamus is the guy behind the awesome 'DM of the Rings' comic series)

I picked that up and posted at GamignWithChildren about it. I mention this site specifically regarding how to 'do it right' - I think the community built here and the feeling of engagement with the dev really helped set the stage for a community that supports the game nicely. Not that there isn't piracy - I'm sure there is, but I have seen someone post elsewhere saying 'I pirated it and then liked it so much that I bought it' ... and get eviscerated for having pirated it in the first place.

I agree that the fundamental answer *has* to be about rewards rather than punishment. There are a number of reasons for pirating and they won't change - the change to be made is to convert stealers to buyers.

[PaSquall]

I saw that on the RPGCodex, very interesting.
I am suspicious of how many pirate downloaders actually go and pay money for a game they already stole. I bet there are some, but I bet there is a large number that dont.

I'd bet that, too. Frankly, if someone pirated a game, liked it and finished it, is he going to go and buy the game to replay it ? I strongly doubt it. At least, for a large majority of people.
Although the figures given in a post above seems a bit exagerated to me, piracy is a real problem for PC gaming.

[Saxon1974]

I saw that on the RPGCodex, very interesting.
I am suspicious of how many pirate downloaders actually go and pay money for a game they already stole. I bet there are some, but I bet there is a large number that dont.

I'd bet that, too. Frankly, if someone pirated a game, liked it and finished it, is he going to go and buy the game to replay it ? I strongly doubt it. At least, for a large majority of people.
Although the figures given in a post above seems a bit exagerated to me, piracy is a real problem for PC gaming.

Totally agree that it's a real problem in PC gaming. My guess would be its somewhere around 50% though, not in the 90% range they mention. But still that is alot of lost sales.

[silverkitty]

Stardock "replies": http://draginol.joeuser.com/article/303 ... _PC_Gaming

[Rollor]

Nice post. Good to see some new views on piracy

[Krafen]

Thanks for posting that link. His article was an interesting read and he made some good points.

[Iane]

Trouble is not many Standards in PC hardware and that's maybe why so many developers are going over to the console market cos the standard is across the board - there is no Excuse for Piracy other than your a selfish GIT who thinks you should get everything for free and then upload to 1000 other places cos you think your cool in doing so.

But to think Piracy is just a PC problem is a mistake - console games are widely pirated also and one point in mention is the PS3 and this is why in Australia we get a CUT down load of trash of a console with many features gamers in the USA enjoy but we Can't unless we buy from usa and why because of piracy but they still have the cheek to make us pay 1000 bucks for it.

I pay no attention to online or magazine reviews - why because I believe they are bias and in the big gaming companys pockets and you have only got to believe this when a online reviewer is sacked because he gave a honest review and the gaming company complained because it wasn't the hype they wanted or the score they were after.

It amazes me how many people will believe in the word of a pirate as in Titan quests case - the protection they used is not much different than to what has been created for many years but in different ways and why the hell should they tell people who pirate the game you have been stoped playing because you are using an illegal copy that's just telling crackers where to look to disable it - the game XIII used similar protection in the way if the game was a pirate copy you could not find a key to progress any further into the game.

Here in Australia we pay through the nose for a new release game - 100 to 120 for the so called major company titles and you always hear it's because of piracy - I call it GREED and will give 2 examples of this GREED.

1)
Some games on Steam from major gaming company decided we in Australia should not get the benifit of the good USA price for there games and upped the price to reflect the Store price here even though it's downloaded from the same US server.

2)A well known Grafix company who also sells a well known compression tool has a website in USA and Australia - the compression Tool sells on US website for 29$ but the same tool sells for 64$ on the OZ site so they want double the profit for the same download - GREED

and the same is for a specific GFX program I wanted - 89$ from US and 199$ from OZ - JUST PLAIN AND SIMPLE GREED and I know where I'll buy from.

So should this be a reason to pirate - NO I wait for the title to reach the 10$ bargan bin because 10$ is all I think they deserve.

Well it's sad to hear about Titan Quest Creators as I really enjoyed the game and yes I have the ORIGINAL of the GOLD Edition just one out of 1200 titles I own.

[elstyr]

Thanks for the link BW, very interesting stuff. I haven't knew that they had so much problems with TQ. I by myself bought it, played it through and was happy.
As my beginning times are far gone (my first PC games were in 1987), I've totally lost track about warez already in the middle of the 90s. Today for me its obvious to buy a game if I want to play it, and to not have to deal with copy protections is a big favour to me (if I remember how much time we've spent in the early years to get cracks, other cracks, cracks to cracks, manual copies, missing files etc., no way).

Not to mention todays review business, where nearly everyone with a website, who's got some visitors is already a "reviewer" and claims to be _the_ word on topic.. Too many of them, and they can change things they've said whenever they want (websites). Its quite different to the printed media, I think.

.. why the hell should they tell people who pirate the game you have been stoped playing because you are using an illegal copy that's just telling crackers where to look to disable it..

I have to disagree on this. I've worked for a company, that claimed a different, less popular software genre, but we've had also a few thousands customers. Our software always dropped a message when it stopped working because of a copy protection violation. And even though, our tool wasn't cracked for almost four years. There were lots of cracks released, and also "definitely" cracked versions, uber-full-versions, but none was really fully cracked during that time. Of course, at some point our protection mechanisms became too weak (or the crackheads too good;), but after redesigning the mechanisms, well, as far as I know, its uncracked yet again.

My conclusion - to "become cracked" isn't relying on if you tell the user that the game crashes because of copy protection or not.
In my opinion this little info (crash due copy protection vio.) would at one hand of course attract your software to become cracked, but on the other hand, and thats imho much more important, it will keep unsure customers to stand by for the "real" version (because the "mass" isn't running for the next crack week by week, the most just try it once imho), and it will let the "elite cracking groups" look very lame, if their "definitely" cracked version still crashes due to copy protection violation again and again.
It will probably also bore the on-the-edge-crack-people by waiting for the "ultimate" crack much enough, so that they decide to buy the game in the end to have their rest and peace and - fun of playing.

Just my thoughts,
Best,
Elstyr

[b0rsuk]

I bought many games because I pirated them earlier. Demos are often too short and/or misleading to base my decisions on.
If a game tries to look like crap (Titan's Quest), crashes, in the name of copy protection - I just think it's a crappy game and never, ever consider buying it. I don't buy games with critical bugs. End of story.

Having money is completely different than having no money. Prior to getting a job, I could never afford to buy them. Saving money for my computer was hard enough. Then I had to pay for my studies. Now I'm 24 years old and only now I can really buy games. Besides, until 4th april my credit card wouldn't work for international transfers.

Stardock proves time and again that you can earn money by making good games. I watch http://metacritic.com/games/pc and Stardock's (and other indie games) consistently end up on the top of the list, when sorted by score. Stardock's games sell well and it's in part because there's no copy protection. Not despite that. Don't treat your customers like thieves.
To paraphrase Origin: "Copy protection only lasts a while, but it sucks (for honest customers) forever."
Even Id Software is confused now, although you have to give them credit for supporting operating systems like Linux and opensourcing engines. I'm still going to buy Rage once it comes out.

Believe or not, but pirates often simply deliver better service than the publishers. Most games are STILL not available for download, legally. I don't need a stinking piece of plastic that gets scratched easily. I don't want to go to shop each time, or wait a couple of weeks for my game. Smarter developers catch up with pirates by offering downloads, and - guess what - they profit. Tons of games are sold via Steam. Stardocks does well by using digital downloads. DROD sells through digital downloads, and it has 2 sequels. If mainstream publishers are too stupid to adapt, fine - let them go to consoles. Smarter people, today's indie/garage developers will take their place. Unless EA buys them out just to destroy them.

[b0rsuk]

Don't treat your customers like thieves.

But you are a thief.

Don't use words you don't understand. I'm going to give you benefit of doubt. Next time I'll expand my ignore list. I don't have to put up with people like you in my free time.


thief, stealer
a criminal who takes property belonging to someone else with the intention of keeping it or selling it


You're pretty brave for someone living inside my computer. I wonder if you also insult people face to face, without anything to back it up.

[Maelstrom]

Don't treat your customers like thieves.

But you are a thief.

Don't use words you don't understand. I'm going to give you benefit of doubt. Next time I'll expand my ignore list. I don't have to put up with people like you in my free time.


thief, stealer
a criminal who takes property belonging to someone else with the intention of keeping it or selling it

I have to agree with Culmination on this one.

You pretty much said it. You bought many games because of the pirated copy you owned. Why not buy ALL the pirated games you owned? Since you didn't purchase copies of all the pirated copies you owned you are the very example of the definition you provided. About 20 years ago a classmate of mine in high school got busted by the FBI for pirating software. You mind explaining how pirating software isn't the same as shoplifting or theft?

You say you don't/didn't have money? Tough beans. I, too, languished in my adolescence with wanting more games than I could afford (that story hasn't changed over the last 20 years either.) I didn't resort to stealing - oh sorry, pirating, to satisfy my wants. According to your argument it's perfectly okay for someone with insufficient money to steal food and clothes.

So demo's are too short to convince you to buy them? Again, join the club. If a demo doesn't capture my attention before it ends, then I don't buy it. Civ 4 and a number of demos from Ambrosia Software fall into this category for me. One of their demo's (Darwinia to be exact) is extremely short (only 2 levels which is about 2 or 3 hours of play time.) But it has captured enough of my attention in that time for me to buy it when I get the chance. It's only $30 but I'm currently unemployed and delaying all unnecessary purchases until I have a steady income stream.

It sounds to me like you like a game enough to want to play it to the end but can't justify spending the money to buy it. Such is life. I've encountered that problem too. Again, I don't buy games if the demo doesn't captivate my attention. In the end it seems to me like you just have some more growing up to do.