Can you deal with no auto map?

[Saxon1974]

I struggled recently when trying to play older 3D sytle RPG's with no automap (like M&M 1).

This being said I really wanted to go back and play through some of the great classics that I played years ago (Most I didnt finish). So, I bought a copy of "The Bard's Tale" (The c64) version complete with box and manual and started playing it again. I bought some graph paper to do the mapping and got started. I am playing the C64 version on an emulator (I like the c64 best even though it doesn't have the best graphics).

I am actually finding that I am rather enjoying it surprisingly. It is a bit tedious but you get better as you go, and I find that it makes exploring a dungeon more rewarding since it's more of a challenge. It does make it feel a bit more mysterious when you have to map it yourself.

Would I prefer an automap if I had a choice? Of course I would but I dont think it takes away as much as I originally thought it did from the fun of playing the game.

I may not (Most likey not) finish the whole game, but its still quite fun even with having to make maps.

Anyone else out there still able to play a game with no automap?

[acoustibop]

I would guess lots of us used to do that, Saxon. I've still got some of the old maps knocking about; plus still unused boxes of graph paper, coloured felt tip pens etc...

Nowadays, of course, even if the game doesn't include maps or even automaps, you can usually google one. It may be a lot easier, but it's not nearly as much fun...

[Saxon1974]

I would guess lots of us used to do that, Saxon. I've still got some of the old maps knocking about; plus still unused boxes of graph paper, coloured felt tip pens etc...

Nowadays, of course, even if the game doesn't include maps or even automaps, you can usually google one. It may be a lot easier, but it's not nearly as much fun...

Yea I have usually got a copy of the maps from the net somewhere but you are right, it kills the fun when you have the ready made maps with all the details already filled in. I guess the most annoying part is when you draw an entire wall in the wrong square! Use pencil!

The C64 version of this game is dark and later versions were made to improve the graphics and lighten it up....but I find the darkness of the game cool, but it could just be nostalgia of summer nights playing this game on my dad C64 back in the mid 80's.

[acoustibop]

Well, I used to draw rough diagrams as I went along, Saxon - after all, I was playing at the same time! - and then transcribed them to graph paper afterwards. It used to be really gratifying when I did the passages of a dungeon, and they all worked out the correct number of squares!

[Feidb]

That was the only way to play most of those games back then. The only exception I remember was the Phantasie series. But I for one, breathed a huge sigh of relief when the automaps came along.

Speaking of automaps, I much prefer the one that fills in as you go along, no the ones that display the whole unexplored area before you go there.

I just don't have time any more to mess with manual graph paper. I still have my maps from the Gold Box series, but that's it for now.

Feidb

[Saxon1974]

Definitely agree on the auto maps that fill out areas as you go along, that way you dont see whats there before you discover it. I think I would rather no map that one that reveals all before you get there.

I don't really have that much time either, but playing RPG's is a fun stress reliever for me and if I am enjoying playing that I don't really care how long it takes.

[Krafen]

That was the only way to play most of those games back then. The only exception I remember was the Phantasie series. But I for one, breathed a huge sigh of relief when the automaps came along.

Speaking of automaps, I much prefer the one that fills in as you go along, no the ones that display the whole unexplored area before you go there.

I just don't have time any more to mess with manual graph paper. I still have my maps from the Gold Box series, but that's it for now.

Feidb

I remember mapping out those gold box games in detail. Particularly Pool of Radiance. I picked up the hint book at one point and it was gratifying to discover my maps were more detailed than those in the book.

When a game is based on a grid, mapping it to graph paper can be a fun additional challenge. As game maps become more sophisticated, mapping by hand becomes more tedious and auto maps make the game more enjoyable. A map that only reveals where you have been "fog of war" is generally best, although in some settings it makes sense to have a simple map to start with. I can't think of any RPGs I have played that just showed me the entire map before I visited the areas, actually.

[zanderohm]

It's funny, but I played all of the old rpg's when they came out, Wizardry, Bard's Tale, Gold boxes, etc. but never bothered making maps... just too darn lazy... I probably missed out on a few things, but I got through all of the games...

I must say, for lazy boyz like me, the automapping is a BIG plus!

[elstyr]

@Saxon: for sure, drawing maps gave me a much deeper connection to a game. I planned my next steps, tactics way more intensively, created escape plans, developed the shortest routes to important landmarks. Thinking above a paper plan, not in front of a screen, a whole different thing and increases creativity (for me).
I always put orientation marks assigned to special situations, fights, chambers etc. in my drawings to keep the whole picture better in mind, and this also pushed my imagination about the scenery, quests, the (game-)world forwards - I also drew parts of the landscape into the maps based on how I I've imagined them.

Drawing your own maps is like creating a picture of your gameplay, love this. I even drew a map for Oceans crappy Jurassic Park game once (ouch) :).

Sadly, today I have no time anymore to get that deep into a game, or better, to spend so much time on a game. I would love to, but the spare time I've got left for gaming is vanishing, so I appreciate the auto maps. But I want them not to be obvious (its not the right word I know), I mean I don't want to have them granted in all detail from the beginning, thats too easy and completely removes the need of thinking about the land structure etc., I like it more like it is realized in Eschalon. You get some simple map, live with it and keep the details in your memory, or spend your holy gold, power etc. for it. Thats a way I can live quite good with.

Sorry if my words are a bit wildly thrown together, found 3 glasses of tasty wine in my quickslot ;).

Best Regards,
Elstyr

[Randomizer]

I remember spending hours mapping Might and Magic I and making notes on the messages that popped up as well as the monster locations. Might and Magic II had an automap, but I still needed those notes to make the maps useful.

Now the original Bard's Tale was a pain for mapping because it played in real time so I had to pause every time I needed to map. I never did get that far, but I recently bought the full reissued games for some day.

The Ultima games I never mapped that much since I didn't really need the details. I more or less memorized the dungeons so I could move quickly through them. I didn't know where I was, but I knew what the route looked like to get in and out.

[Mithter Thibbs]

When I first played The Bard's Tale, I mapped every single square of that game. Loved it. The spinners were tricky at first, the darkness I got used to, the teleporters and the wraparounds gave me no end of grief, but it was fun. Today, even though I still have the maps, I don't use them. I don't need to. My fingers still know the correct route to take for all the biggest fights and all the necessary treasures from the cellar of the Scarlet Bard to Mangar's fifth. But I know that I wouldn't have the patience for mapping it all out today, not when I know that I can just look it up online.

Same deal with Ultima 6. The dungeons I didn't bother making really detailed maps for, but the overland area... heheh. For some reason, I recall mistrusting the map that came with the game -- I suspect it was because my older brother told me that it was from a different game entirely, that there was a mix up when they were putting the game together, and that I'd have to map the whole world myself. So I did. I got out my coloured pencil and graph paper, I bought me a skiff and had Dupre lug it around for me, I bought me a sextant, and I mapped about 90% of that world -- everything except the Isle of the Avatar and the surrounding waters -- complete with mountain ranges, rivers, swamps, deserts, shrines, and dungeon entrances. Anything of interest, I marked on that map. And it was accurate, too, when I compared it to the real U6 world map. Now that was fun.

But again, no patience for it these days. Not that I need to since I still remember that game as well, but the internet has spoiled me silly and I could look up any map for any game in pretty much a heartbeat. I'll still explore games as much as I can -- I'll even go so far as to figure out just how much of a map is on the game screen and crisscross back and forth methodically, just to make sure I don't miss anything -- but I'm really glad they come with automaps these days. I might be able to go back to making maps by hand even though worlds and the control schemes games use are much more complex these days, and I'm pretty sure I'd enjoy the experience, but for some reason, I'm just not looking forward to having to do it again. It was fun back in the day, and it did end up investing me to a greater extent in those games where there simply wasn't that much actual content, but there are alternatives now, and I'd rather explore that world and its cultures rather than cramp my hand transcribing it all to paper.

[Saxon1974]

For those of you with mapping experience.....how the heck do I tell when I go past the edge of the screen? In Bard's Tale one when you reach the edge of the map it moves you to the other side, but without being ale to tell when that happens it makes it difficult to map!

[Maelstrom]

For those of you with mapping experience.....how the heck do I tell when I go past the edge of the screen? In Bard's Tale one when you reach the edge of the map it moves you to the other side, but without being ale to tell when that happens it makes it difficult to map!

Map it out as if there are no wrap around. Look for a box with parts that stick out and you should discover the point where it wraps around.

Not sure about Bard's Tale but Wizardry I (Proving Ground of the Mad Overlord) had a spell that gave you the coordinates on the 20x20 grid - at least I think it was a 20x20 box. If BT has that, use it when you suspect the wrap around.

[Mithter Thibbs]

Heh... that's what I did in The Bard's Tale at first. I just mapped as if there wasn't any wraparound, and eventually I found out where things lined up and truncated my maps accordingly.

And then I discovered a handy little spell called "Scry Sight", or SCSI in the spell-typing-in nomenclature of the PC version of The Bards Tale games (the first two, anyway). That handy little spell (I forget which class gets it, but I recall it coming along quite early in my games, if not immediately) will actually give your precise coordinates according to the game's own grid system.

Almost feels like cheating, it makes it all so neat and tidy.

[Saxon1974]

Yea I discovered that Scry Site spell, definitely makes thing easier.

It tells you how far away you are from the entrance of the dungeon's lowest level, and luckily each dungeon starts at the cell farthest to the south west. Thanks for the responses im getting it now, didnt want to have to do alot of erasing.

Im just about finished with the first level of the sewer's. I found some spider statue, but when I searched it it said I was attacked by a "Spinner" and I killed it then nothing happens. That seemed odd, I wonder what that statue was for....

And thanks Maelstrom for your suggestion as well.