Obama or McCain?

[BasiliskWrangler]

Just a quick poll to see who you think would be the best person to lead the US after Bush is shown the door. This vote is of course open to all Drunken Lizard Pub patrons, US citizen or not, regardless of your age.

[realmzmaster]

I am picking Obama. His message of change rings with me. I do not seriously believe he will be able to bring the troops home in 18 months, but I am willing to give him the chance to try. I refuse to accept the status quo, and I am afraid that is what we will get with McCain.

I know that the war in Iraq is just one of the nation's problems, but it is the 800 pound gorilla in the election.

Either candidate will inherit a mess. The point of deciding whether it was right or wrong to invade Iraq is now left to the historians.

The problem is how to end the war? Brute force is not going to kill an ideology, unless you plan on wiping out every fanatic (religious or otherwise) on the planet.

The war in Iraq has dissolved into a civil mess. Like it or not, Saddam Hussein was the glue that held the country together much like Stalin. Saddam kept Iran at bay. He had no love for theocracies. Power was his god.

The US is trying to impose democracy on the Iraq, not for its best interest, but ours. We need Iraq as buttress against Iran. Another beacon of democracy in the Middle East. But that runs counter to the theocracies in place.

I believe that the troops are doing good in Iraq, but increasingly I believe they are no longer welcome.

Another problem is that Iraqi independence was US imposed. The independence did not come from within. American independence started with Americans and we sought help from other countries. Independence is treasured when you fight for it, like the Kurds who stood against Saddam.

But this is MHO. I do not expect everyone to agree with it. That is what makes the United States great.

[realmzmaster]

Let the debates begin Remember we can agree to disagree

The second major problem for whoever becomes president, is the economy. We complain about $4 and up gasoline, but in the words of Pogo "We have met the enemy and he is us".

We have left ourselves at the mercy of the oil producing countries. How can we howl at them for using the bargaining chip we give them? Oil is expected to reach $150 a barrel by July. The president asked the OPEC and others to increase their production. Why should they? It is in their best interests to let the price climb and keep a rein on oil production. There is a finite supply, but an almost infinite demand.

The United States and other industrial countries run on oil and that will not change in the long foreseeable future.

The United States had warnings back in the 1970's. We failed to heed them. We could have invested heavily in alternative energy sources, but we did not. We loved our gas guzzlers and our lifestyles.

You reap what you sow. And if you sow to the wind, you will reap the whirlwind.

[realmzmaster]

The basis of the housing crsis is greed and guillibility. The American dream is to own a home have a wife and one or more children.
Banks, mortgage brokers and real estate agents got greedy. The buying public did not educate themselves. The real estate agents and others gave buyers a way to own homes that they really could not afford.

I am not saying all banks or real estate agents, but enough to cause a problem.

The other cause was people thought the market would not cool in the foreseeable future. But, the market was building on a house of cards and it has come tumbling down.

We now have a gult of condos and houses. In Chicago it is estimated 100,000 new condos will come on the market with no buyers in sight. Most of these condos will have to go back to rental or sit empty.

The next president will have to give the people hope. Make them believe that there is light at the end of the tunnel. The next president better be a Houdini, because we need an escape artist. IMHO

[BasiliskWrangler]

Very well-informed answers, realmzmaster. I have to say I agree with pretty much all your points.

According to a new Gallup poll, Obama's lead is growing.

[Maelstrom]

Let the debates begin Remember we can agree to disagree

The second major problem for whoever becomes president, is the economy. We complain about $4 and up gasoline, but in the words of Pogo "We have met the enemy and he is us".

We have left ourselves at the mercy of the oil producing countries. How can we howl at them for using the bargaining chip we give them? Oil is expected to reach $150 a barrel by July. The president asked the OPEC and others to increase their production. Why should they? It is in their best interests to let the price climb and keep a rein on oil production. There is a finite supply, but an almost infinite demand.

The United States and other industrial countries run on oil and that will not change in the long foreseeable future.

The United States had warnings back in the 1970's. We failed to heed them. We could have invested heavily in alternative energy sources, but we did not. We loved our gas guzzlers and our lifestyles.

You reap what you sow. And if you sow to the wind, you will reap the whirlwind.

Economy is going to be the biggest issue come November and heading that issue is gas prices. Have you noticed how everything is more expensive? Of course the thing you don't hear much about is reducing taxes on gas. Depending upon the location gas tax can be as much as $1.00 or more per gallon!

Alternative energy? Sounds good but even the best alternative energies are inefficient. A friend in the energy industry advised me that if we had focused all we could in producing alternative energy the U.S. would reduce it's fossil fuel dependence from 77% to 70%. I'm all for developing alternative power generation methods, but the sad reality is that humanity hasn't developed a more efficient method of power generation than fossil fuels (which includes coal.)

I think the best solution is to promote alternative energy (including nuclear fission) for the long term while opening up domestic oil fields for development and build more refineries to increase gas production. Unfortunately, the environmentalists have a strangle hold on drilling domestic oil and the oil companies like their big fat profit margins to build more refineries (partly due to the cost of cutting through the regulations and fighting the environmentalists.)

Finally, I agree that we reap what we sow. Technology always has at least one unforeseen consequence for every benefit it provides. With the advent of the steam engine pollution in quantities never seen before covered the land, arguably creating the first case of acid rain. Since then humanity has been all to eager to advance technology as rapidly as possible and never-mind the physical, emotional or moral consequences. We continually push for the cheapest most expedient solution to our problem so we through pills at our health and extract fossil fuels by the multi-billion tons per second. Burning coal laces the countryside far downwind with pollution (like uranium!) Is it any wonder allergies are at unprecedented levels? We genetically and chemically manipulate the animals we harvest (eggs, milk, meat, etc.) and is it any wonder our kids physically develop faster than any other generation in human history? My 2nd grade daughter has armpit hair for crying out loud! Thank you Big Farm for the growth hormone laden meat and milk she eats and drinks because we can't afford organic!

Aye! We reap what we sow. And at the pace we're sowing as a global civilization, we're aren't going to reap just the whirlwind. It'll be the freaking Mother of all Catastrophes humanity has never seen that this civilization will reap. I think I would have preferred to live during the dark ages.

[Maelstrom]

Very well-informed answers, realmzmaster. I have to say I agree with pretty much all your points.

According to a new Gallup poll, Obama's lead is growing.

It's funny how the Democrat is always the front runner through the summer. And only one Democrat managed to win the White House since 1976. Carter was the front runner of Reagan in 1980 which was a bad year for pollsters. Many in the media questioned the validity of pollsters after that election. I can think of numerous problems the pollsters have to contend with to get a valid sample to base their numbers off of, beginning with their own bias which affects how the questions are worded. Phrasing is critical in polling and other opinion based research as it can externally affect the response of the subject.

Case in point: my local paper has a weather page which reports the "Hottest" and "Coolest" temperatures in various areas. That is a poor phrasing as it should be "hottest and coldest" or "warmest and coolest". Choosing the words they have implies global warming.

[Maelstrom]

The basis of the housing crsis is greed and guillibility. The American dream is to own a home have a wife and one or more children.
Banks, mortgage brokers and real estate agents got greedy. The buying public did not educate themselves. The real estate agents and others gave buyers a way to own homes that they really could not afford.

I am not saying all banks or real estate agents, but enough to cause a problem.

The other cause was people thought the market would not cool in the foreseeable future. But, the market was building on a house of cards and it has come tumbling down.

We now have a gult of condos and houses. In Chicago it is estimated 100,000 new condos will come on the market with no buyers in sight. Most of these condos will have to go back to rental or sit empty.

The next president will have to give the people hope. Make them believe that there is light at the end of the tunnel. The next president better be a Houdini, because we need an escape artist. IMHO

Boy can I talk about this one. Until February of this year I was a mortgage underwriter for a major investment bank and will agree that the root cause was plain greed. Most of the people in the mortgage game over the past 5 years wanted a piece of the money pie. There were a minority of us that fought it as best we could, but there were multitudes more that didn't care beyond the $$$. I will add that the Federal Reserve (particularly Greenspan) and the government itself also have pieces of the blame pie to choke down.

Greenspan pushed Mortgage Backed Securities real hard in the 90's. The government discovered all kinds of good things from home ownership (like reduced crime in neighborhoods of homeowners) and pushed for easier acquisition of homes. This increased the number of homeowners that did not take pride in their home. I think the government failed to answer one critical question about the benefits of homeownership: Why? WHY do those benefits exist?

From the research I've done, most economic and financial genius types are saying this thing isn't going to hit bottom until at least 2010 and probably 2012. What hasn't hit the MSM (MainStream Media) is that the "A paper" borrower's are defaulting at rates similar to the Subprime borrower did about 3 years ago. note: mortgage lending is divided in to "A paper" meaning people with good credit evidencing little or no late payments on ANY credit. Everyone else is considered Subprime. There are a few that don't even meet that standard but that's a different story.

In the end we are in a bad spot similar to a roller coaster. At this point we are about to crest the first hill and we know two things:
1. It's going to be a wild ride and
2. We aren't getting out of it.

About the only thing anyone that is knowledgeable and reliable (i.e. not selling snake oil) is advising at this point is to reduce your debt to ride out the roller coaster we're on.

If you're in anything other than a fixed mortgage, do everything you can to refinance into fixed rate mortgage(s).

[Maelstrom]

I am picking Obama. His message of change rings with me. I do not seriously believe he will be able to bring the troops home in 18 months, but I am willing to give him the chance to try. I refuse to accept the status quo, and I am afraid that is what we will get with McCain.

But this is MHO. I do not expect everyone to agree with it. That is what makes the United States great.

Change. Interesting concept: change.

Good change or bad change? Changing something just because the current state of things isn't liked isn't necessarily a good idea. A lot of bad things can happen if change is made for the sake of change.


I agree that things need to change but I don't think Obama's changes will make things better. Unfortunately, he doesn't have much of a record to make an informed decision about him. In the Illinois legislature he simply voted present rather than take a stand on ANYTHING! At least McCain has shown himself to be a turncoat to conservatism.

I fear that the U.S. will be worse off in 4 years than it is now, regardless of who is elected. It's just a question of how much damage will be created during that time. I feel that this years options are hemlock in the left hand and cyanide in the right. Which one? How about neither?

Hopefully, 2012 will present a better choice of leaders.

[BasiliskWrangler]

I agree that things need to change but I don't think Obama's changes will make things better. Unfortunately, he doesn't have much of a record to make an informed decision about him. In the Illinois legislature he simply voted present rather than take a stand on ANYTHING! At least McCain has shown himself to be a turncoat to conservatism.

This could be true, but Obama seems to have the energy and charisma needed to restore people's faith in the government. If he is willing to listen to his advisers and the will of the people, and not follow his own blind ideals, then we would be better off from what we have had.

I don't think we can possibly change for the worse at this point. The US is in a terrible position, both domestically and in our foreign policies. McCain appears to want to stay on this same track. I am behind anyone who seriously wants to get the US off this train wreck that the current administration has put us on.

[Maelstrom]

This could be true, but Obama seems to have the energy and charisma needed to restore people's faith in the government. If he is willing to listen to his advisers and the will of the people, and not follow his own blind ideals, then we would be better off from what we have had.

I don't think we can possibly change for the worse at this point. The US is in a terrible position, both domestically and in our foreign policies. McCain appears to want to stay on this same track. I am behind anyone who seriously wants to get the US off this train wreck that the current administration has put us on.

Energy and charisma do not make a good leader. It only makes a persuasive one. After all, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Good intentions are the energy and charisma to bad change. Yes, America is in a bad spot right now. And now is the time to look for a leader that will not only stop the status quo but make changes that benefit the nation. What America needs the most right now is a leader that is accountable not to the lobbyists or the party line but to the people of this country and the Constitution.

I'm convinced that anyone above the local (city/county) level are corrupted by the power they seek. Even many at the local level are succumbing to that corruption. I have no faith in anyone that is considered "electable" by either party to do anything other than look out for the interests of their party and themselves. Unfortunately, we the people are screwed, glued and tattooed.

Thomas Jefferson said (or at least believed) that a little revolution is a good thing. He endorsed throwing out the constitution every 20 or 40 years and drafting a new contract. I don't think the Constitution needs to be rewritten, but it sure has been trampled on. It's definitely time for a little revolution - preferably peacefully.

[realmzmaster]

Maelstrom said

Yes, America is in a bad spot right now. And now is the time to look for a leader that will not only stop the status quo but make changes that benefit the nation.

The problem is you only have two viable choices to pick from for president. The attacks from both camps have started. The tearing down of each candidate will continue. The people will then vote along with the Electoral College for least muddied survivor. We will then have a new president. The new president will either affect change or maintain the status quo.

Yes Obama does not have a track record which can be good or bad. But, he has the ability to captivate people. If he can get people to follow him. He may have the ability to unite a nation. If he can do that I feel the US has a chance. I know McCain's track record and what he has said. I lean to Obama for this reason. You have four choices:

Vote Obama, Vote McCain, vote for anyone else to make a statement or do not vote.

Some of us will vote based on the issues. Some will vote their political ideology. Some will vote based on the lesser of two evils. Some of us will not vote, giving the lame excuse that voting will change nothing.

Anyone who does not vote should not complain about the policies of the next president.

If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem. I find it funny that the people who complain loudest about the president are the one who did not bother to vote!

The next president better come into the office with a vision and a heavy dose of reality.

[rocketman28]

I live in Australia so I don' t care

[Maelstrom]

Maelstrom said

Yes, America is in a bad spot right now. And now is the time to look for a leader that will not only stop the status quo but make changes that benefit the nation.

The problem is you only have two viable choices to pick from for president. The attacks from both camps have started. The tearing down of each candidate will continue. The people will then vote along with the Electoral College for least muddied survivor. We will then have a new president. The new president will either affect change or maintain the status quo.

Yes Obama does not have a track record which can be good or bad. But, he has the ability to captivate people. If he can get people to follow him. He may have the ability to unite a nation. If he can do that I feel the US has a chance. I know McCain's track record and what he has said. I lean to Obama for this reason. You have four choices:

Vote Obama, Vote McCain, vote for anyone else to make a statement or do not vote.

Some of us will vote based on the issues. Some will vote their political ideology. Some will vote based on the lesser of two evils. Some of us will not vote, giving the lame excuse that voting will change nothing.

Anyone who does not vote should not complain about the policies of the next president.

If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem. I find it funny that the people who complain loudest about the president are the one who did not bother to vote!

The next president better come into the office with a vision and a heavy dose of reality.

I wasn't necessarily talking about the election as much as the state of the nation. Things have progressively been getting worse in this country over the past 50 years. Corruption of politicians is rampant in the state and nation branches of the government, and the American people have little voice since the choices offered to us have only slight differentiation of the same corrupt leaders we currently have. Even ousting everyone that can be voted out of office will change little as the ones that gain office will pretty much maintain the status quo of what we currently have.

There a very few voices that are currently in Congress that are there for the job everyone is supposed to do. Unfortunately, those few (like Tom Tancredo was) are members of such insignificant committees that it's obvious, the only way to be a policy maker in Washington is to play the game of corruption. The only way to become an "electable" presidential candidate is to master the corruption game.

As for the upcoming election. Everyone faces the four choices you stated. My spiritual beliefs include what Maximus in the Gladiator states, "What we do here echoes through eternity." Given the choices of bad and worse from the parties of power, I will be voting for whom I think will be the best leader of this nation. Of course I will be surprised if that name gets even 0.5% of the vote, but I've been evaluating my choices in the light of eternity a lot lately.

[Feidb]

As a lifelong democrat, it pains me to say that Obama makes my skin crawl. I absolutely despise that guy, in a Nostradamus kind of way. The guy talks some good game, but doesn't seem to have much on substance. And, his world view seems (and I paraphrase "seems") to be incredibly naieve.

Then there is McCain. I used to like him as a maverick, but since the election has started, he is talking the same old crap as Bush, and that disappoints me. I might have actually stretched a little and voted republican for the first time if he'd continued to act the maverick. Now, he seems to be Bush Junior, so there's no way in hell I'll ever vote for him.

No matter what either of the candidates say, I just don't belive in them. And that is what scares me about Obama. I see so many people google-eyed over him and it reminds me of Jim Jones.

Sorry if this sounds so negative. However, I can understand why so many sensible people (not the google-eyed zealots) like Obama. What other choices do we have?

Maybe I'll write in Frank Zappa. He may be dead, but at least he probably wouldn't screw up the country worse than it already is.