Ranger vs Fighter and other classes...

[macmert]

Hey guys I want your opinion...

I am a huuge huuge fan of rangers in DnD and I choose ranger the first time BUT...

Using bows is pretty much useless imo cause you hit but deal no dmg AND an arrow costs 1gp!!! I cant use two weapon fighting ok the game doesnt support it, I have no animal companion, I can move silently and hide in shadows but I cant really see the use of it much since there is no back stab or bonus for attacking from shadows... I cant wear heavy armor cause it will affect hiding and moving silently...

So is it pretty much useless or am I so stupid to make this ranger class work????

[Doug Tenser]

Rangers start out pretty weak as the arrows cost a fortune and you get bugger all early on but I ended the game with a Ranger based character and heaps of arrows and heaps of gold.

I got my bows skill up to 33 and complimented that with a sword skill of 21 using a smattering of other skills (mostly via trainers and books) the highest being (without item augmentation) Spot Hidden of 4 and Divine of 3 to cast some heal spells when needed.

I used light armour for my ranger and didn't add a point to it's skill. Didn't use dodge though I might a second time through.

Seems that boosting your DEX and CONC is important for bow use and STR is important too for sword and also to allow you to carry a huge stack of arrows.

Highest damage that my Ranger dealt (that I saw) was 72 with a critical shot from a bow using some Assassins arrows (the best I ever found).
In hindsight I probably built a ranged fighter rather than a purists Ranger.

Still very good fun though.

[macmert]

Well you cant build a purist ranger cause there arent any skills that are distinguished as ranger skills, most of the skills are necessary for other classes so I hope for the second game the classes are more distinguished I have a mage but fights like a bull so create purist characters are tough imo...

[VPeric]

But the point isn't to make a "pure" character anyway - this is not D&D! There's absolutely no reason you shouldn't purchase, say, Divination once you can in order to get the heal/some other spell, even as a pure fighter.

[macmert]

What you say is true this is not DnD... But the thing is we learned ranger from DnD so I would like to see some resemblence also you know rangers in DnD cast divine spells, I am not saying we must build pure classes but there are some basic fundemental skills that are missing, like two hander fighting but there is something useless like bows... I dont really get it I mean an arrow is 1 gp which is an expensive price and you cant deal damage everytime you hit a target... So there is no point I would buy elemental skills then use fire dart instead it is at least free

There should be differences between a fighter and a ranger that is what I mean, say what is the difference between a ranger and a fighter???? One starts with bows other start with swords but in the beginning you can buy the other skill that is missing and now you get the same character...

I am saying all this but that doesnt mean I didnt like the game I LOVED IT... But I dont see anything different between a fighter and a ranger and as a fan of ranger, I would like to see something different in the second game that is it...

[AUDAN]

Sorry for double-posting. This forum haven't "delete" option

[AUDAN]

I thinkg the Classes are pretty symbolical

And the game is encouraging all-round build i.e. it's better to have diffrent skills and approaches

And yes the "Ranger" is not good choice and with "Ranger" I mean narrow build. Instead I just use the Bow occasionally and I am pleased.

My character was planned as Paladin with Heavy Armor and DIvination, but then naturally he became all-round Hero:

With DIvination +30, but also with ELemental 7 (+5 from Tutor and +2 from book) - there are pretty useful initial EL spells.

With Heavy Armor, but also with one point Light Armor for the nice Light Cloaks with pretty bonuses (I'm with "Priest;s Cloak" which is with just 1 armor, but with "Wisdom +2", and "DIvination +3")

With Bows (5+2).

With Alchemy 5+2 and 6 (2x3) from rings.

etc.

So very specialized character is not good choice IMHO

[elkston]

.. So there is no point I would buy elemental skills then use fire dart instead it is at least free

Cause you're a Ranger and you will stick with your bow even during the rough early stages.

I am currently in the last stages of the game and I played a "Ranger". My main skills are: Bows: 23, Swords: 15, Light Armor: 10.

Doug Tenser said it all in his post. Just stick with it. Put 65% of your points in bows and the rest divide between swords and light armor. For attributes, start out with a decent Concentration (~18) and Wisdom of at least 10 (so you can cast basic Divine spells) and focus the rest of your points into Dexterity, Strength, and Speed.

At first you will only be softening enemies up as they approach and then finishing them off with your sword. But as your bow skill rises you'll start hitting more frequently and taking down foes before they even get close. Couple that with the increased chance for critical hits and magical arrows and you'll be a force to be reckoned with.

One final suggestion:

Learn the Divine Spells: Bless & Cats Eyes and learn the Elemental spell: Predator's Sight. You can learn both the Divine and Elemental skills in one of the major cities in exchange for golds don't waste your precious skill points in them. Pay to have them increased. Level 3 should suffice.

Predator's Sight is very important for dungeons because it greatly alleviates the ToHit penalty you incur for attacking a creature who is in the dark.

[Effidian]

I can move silently and hide in shadows but I cant really see the use of it much since there is no back stab or bonus for attacking from shadows...

The bonus of attacking from shadows is there is no retaliation. At low levels you don't break your hide unless you do damage and at higher levels you rarely break your hide. This is a very big bonus, as it allows you to basically ignore armor and dodge related skills as long as you decide you are going to fight in the dark.

[elkston]

And the game is encouraging all-round build i.e. it's better to have diffrent skills and approaches

So very specialized character is not good choice IMHO

On the contrary, I feel that the modest number of skill points available coupled with the limited number of level-ups you receive in an "average" game heavily encourages specialization.

Spreading your points evenly across many skills will seriously dilute your effectiveness. Its better to focus your precious level-up points on a single weapon type, an armor, and maybe 1 additional skill. Other "auxiliary" skills should only be advanced through gold or books. I don't consider learning other skills to a minimal level as taking away from specialization. They just round out the rough edges of a very focused, specific character build.

[Saxon1974]

I loved playing a Ranger so far.

I added heavy armor since I wanted to wear chain mail, and I added alot of dexterity and learned the spells cat eyes and predator site. The ranger gets easier the longer you play.

I love picking off enemies with the bow and then finishing them off with my Claymore + 1.

[chamr]

I'm also enjoying my Ranger. I don't find the bow useless at all. I use Entangle from the Div school to lock opponents down, when I can, and then pump them full of arrows. Entangle does wonders for your To Hit rating. Of course, also Leatherskin, Cat's Eyes and Heal. Dodge has been a very useful skill for me as well. Fires off quite frequently even with relatively low, <5, skill levels. I find the build very challenging and interesting in a good way. I plan to play a straight up fighter eventually, and I'm anticipating that the combat will be less fun.

[macmert]

So as your skills get better the chance to DEAL DAMAGE is increased... And hide in shadows move silently really works, hmm wish they detailed it in the manual a bit...

I hope in book II we would see two weapon fighting for rangers that would be awesome... And another question, as your armor skills grow does it reduce the penalty for hiding and moving silently??? I always wear light armor so I dont get much penalty for hiding and silent moving...

[AUDAN]

And the game is encouraging all-round build i.e. it's better to have diffrent skills and approaches

So very specialized character is not good choice IMHO

On the contrary, I feel that the modest number of skill points available coupled with the limited number of level-ups you receive in an "average" game heavily encourages specialization.

Yes but you talking in a mathematical aspect in some power-build context. And I'm talking in roleplay aspect - it is more fun and it is more interesting and diverting gameplay expirience with more variety of skills and approaches in the game.

I play with Bludgeonings and with Bows and with plently Divination spells and with some pretty Elemental spells. I have well developed Heavy Armor and Divination, but I use to put some points here and there and that didn't ruin my character at all

So afterall maybe it's a Eschalon's merit, because of the nice and balanced system I guess

I didn't have nothing againts specialized character though I personally prefer the strongly specialized class-build in the RPGs (especiallly in the RPGs with Party gameplay), but particularly in "Eschalon: Book I" the game drives me in the all-around direction

As far as the topic "Ranger vs. Fighter" I don't see a reason not to use Bows at all or intentionally to avoid melee confrontation.

Bows can be developed with 5 points at Trainer, 2 points with Book, and even more points with Items. I personaly had 11 points in Bows without spending even 1 point of my skill points (neither in level-ups nor in character creation). And 11 is quite enough for the purpose of secondary Battle Skill. Even more - I finish the game with 12 points Bludgeoning and that was my main weapon basis. But thats I'm talking about all-round build I have many buffs which complements my character

I just can't see the need to build narrow and partial character. And I'm talking only for "Eschalon: Book I", not in general.

[Loriac]

Normally I would agree with what Audan posted above, however in this game, I think you can specialise without losing a general character. This is because of the trainers / books / items. Specifically:

Key spells are haste, melt lock, lore, and divine heal. Its nice to have the trap disarm spell, portal, and stoneskin, as well as the enchanted weapon and bless spells, but these are gravy for a fighter type.

You can obtain 12 in divination without spending any skill points and 16 in elemental without spending any skills (priest's robe, sandals of the healer; 2xelemental rings, master wizard's hat). I personally would drop about 4-7 points into divination, giving you level 4 or 5 haste without having to use the sandals (the cloak is quite nice I think, as it adds to wisdom). The elemental stuff is less of an issue, because you don't need to cast the key spells in combat.

So, with pretty much no / marginal investment, you can cover off all the magic you'll need to cast. You then drop 2 points into alchemy, giving you a potential 15 with items and trainers / books. This is enough to imbue +3 (!) items.

This still leaves you over 60 skill points during the course of the game to drop into your specialised skills! Also, the main benefits of raising weapons skills are extra +'s to hit and damage. These are taken care of by enchanted weapon / bless spells and assassin's rings. My character, with a total of 12 in swords (including items) was hitting the chancellor's guards at the endgame with a 98% success probability! A fighter with a sword skill of 30 just gets the benefit of not having to cast bless and enchant weapon at the start of the fight; this is more a convenience thing than anything else however.

This to me is a glaring balance issue; magic is completely overpowered in this game as it stands, and it should be toned down. Until it is, you can pretty much substitute whatever skill you need with the appropriate magic spell.