Piracy prevention (or at least assessment)

[Josia]

A very good point - in fact, in this case, I'd say that no unauthorised copies actually represent lost sales.

Zero seems either naive or overly optimistic, but the point is still valid.

That being said if I were in BW's shoes I would feel pretty annoyed nonetheless on principle. Additionally, even if the number is zero today it would appear inevitable that some amount of sales will be lost due to piracy in the future.

[Iane]

For an ongoing Discussion about this read
http://forums.indiegamer.com/showthread.php?t=12262

I will avoid anything that uses DRM except Steams System I purchased FATE from Wild Tangent that only allows 3 activations if I hada known before hand I woulda told them to shove it.

Why are there software pirates? IMO, they are probably mostly kids and teens who cannot easily afford a game, or peoples from places where even $30 is a LOT of money.

That's no excuse really - they can afford a computer - a Internet Connection - a large hard drive to store the Illegal content - A cd/dvd burner - CD's to burn the content too and the Case of beer or pound of weed while they do so

Now if an item is no longer available, ala the dev/publisher won't sell it to you anymore I'm a little more forgiving even understanding. Say something like Neverwinter nights Mac. Man I want this but it's damn near impossible to find for under 70 bucks for both the game and the expansions. The developer/publisher won't sell me a copy and the used copies are both outrageously expensive and the developer/publisher doesn't get a cut of that anyway. What's someone to do in these cases. I'm not going to pay 200+ for 40 dollars worth of games especially if the creators aren't getting a cut.

Supply and Damand but that's no excuse to get a free copy - if you really want the game go buy it - I've paid 2 x original Retail value for over 15 year old games only because I really wanted them but on the other side I have got a game for 50 cents that's rare as hell and goes for $300 US on ebay.

and again this is easily cracked, also. I play a game called Demise and this game has online verification of this type on it. Someone already has cracked that and put it out for free sharing.

Awsome poster with that game - 1.04 is coming soon also wooohoo

[macdude22]

Supply and Damand but that's no excuse to get a free copy - if you really want the game go buy it - I've paid 2 x original Retail value for over 15 year old games only because I really wanted them but on the other side I have got a game for 50 cents that's rare as hell and goes for $300 US on ebay.

Meh, nobody wins there. You can't get a reasonably priced game, the developer/publisher doesn't see any of that extra money. I'm not really down with paying more than original price for games when the folks who made it don't get a cut. It's not a tangible thing like a classic car, it's a piece of intellectual property, and I've no beef with them making their fair share off their work, they earned it. There are even rarer games than aforementioned that are nearly impossible to obtain "legally" yet float freely aboust the net. When games go out of print and are so hard or expensive to obtain via purchase well nobody wins, I don't want to see great (or even terrible) games, movies, books, etc... just disappear forever. Legality aside piracy has created a historical archive of content that simply may not have been possible otherwise.

Don't take my views the wrong way, I'd much rather the developer/publisher just do a reprint, get another batch of games out there for purchase, I don't jive with the people that say don't reprint games, you'll devalue my collection. Bubkis I say to them.

I pay for my content, I rarely nab a movie, I use netflix, cable, the local movie store, amazon.com etc.... Music through Itunes and Amazon.

Let me ask the question, what's worse. Pirating an out of print game like Neverwinter Nights and sending the original developer/publisher 50 bucks in the mail or buying it used for 100 bucks and the owners of the IP see none of that. I'd like to think that choice a is a better choice, ethically.

The problem with media is the value is in the IP itself, not the media it's printed on. Personally, I think if publisher/developers aren't going to let you buy something easier than pirating it then they should drop it to freeware or public domain. But if they want to let you buy it, it's their IP keep makin a few bills. I'm an avid user of gametap, lots of access to a bunch of some relatively hard to get games, yea I could pirate the stuff but this way the right people at least see a few pennies out of the deal.


***Edit***
the topic is mostly academic to me anyway, I own Neverwinter nights. I just use it as an example because it's so outrageously overpriced used and for what, the devs don't see that money. It's not like a classic car where you can't make any more physically. This you can make as many as you want, they just won't anymore and you can't "legally" make them for yourself. Quick cover your eyes, it's mii and neverwinter!

[chamr]

I guess you have not seen the size of most Demos. ...

Of course I have. Dozens. And never once have I felt mislead by a demo. I'd say most people can tell after a few hours with a demo whether the game is a good financial risk for them to take. Games aren't a life changing event, you know. We're not talking about spending your life savings here. A 2-4 hour demo should be plenty to give you enough of an idea. While everyone wants a good deal, you seem to want a level of guarantee that's excessive if you must warez it first before you buy it. It's like test driving the car is not enough for you. You want the dealer to let you take it home, commute in it for a week or so, cart your kids around in it, and take it on a long vacation drive and only after all that will you tell the dealer whether you're going to buy. Unusual, to say the least...

[Effidian]

I'll just throw some food for thought on here. Everyone that downloads pirated versions of games or cracks for whatever reason, supports piracy. No matter what your personal justifications are for doing so, it still supports it. After all, if nobody downloaded anything illegally, there would be no reason to have it available.

[realmzmaster]

Piracy is wrong!! There is no justification for it. People make all the excuses in the world to justify it. I own hundreds of games. I have been crpging since I got my first computer a Timex Sinclair ZX81. I have bought all of my games. I either pay full retail, wait for the price to go down, buy it used or wait for it to become freeware. No, I am not rich. I see no reason to be a thief. Let us call it for what it is theft. I buy my music and games or I do without. People's livilhoods depend on sales of the product, whether it be games or music. The agrument that it cost to much is bunk! No one is holding a gun to your head saying buy this game. A game is not a neccessity! Life goes on with or without it. A game is entertainment. The idea about lost sales it true. If the game is available on a pirate site, there is the temptation for someone who would have otherwise bought the game to get it for free. I have a saying that "Locks are meant to keep honest people honest." Very few locks deter a thief. Locks are meant to dter and keep honest people honest. You may agree or disagree. Piracy can spell the death knell for a company. Because it makes it easy for so-called honest people to be dishonest. Hey, I want a car, guess what, I cannot afford it, so I walk or take mass transit. Does that mean I get to steal one? No! The only reason why games and music are pirated it because it is easy. You get to sit in the comfort of your own home and quietly do it. Very little chance of getting caught unless you are stupid. Does that make it right? The difference between stealing a car and stealing a game is the likihood of getting caught and the punishment. The agrument that the demo does not show enough holds no water. What is enough? The whole game ninus the ending? Half the game, one fourth? Let us drop the excuses and stop trying to justify theft.

[Iane]

Supply and Damand but that's no excuse to get a free copy - if you really want the game go buy it - I've paid 2 x original Retail value for over 15 year old games only because I really wanted them but on the other side I have got a game for 50 cents that's rare as hell and goes for $300 US on ebay.

Meh, nobody wins there. You can't get a reasonably priced game, the developer/publisher doesn't see any of that extra money. I'm not really down with paying more than original price for games when the folks who made it don't get a cut. It's not a tangible thing like a classic car, it's a piece of intellectual property, and I've no beef with them making their fair share off their work, they earned it. There are even rarer games than aforementioned that are nearly impossible to obtain "legally" yet float freely aboust the net. When games go out of print and are so hard or expensive to obtain via purchase well nobody wins, I don't want to see great (or even terrible) games, movies, books, etc... just disappear forever. Legality aside piracy has created a historical archive of content that simply may not have been possible otherwise.

Well both win really - you get the game and they (the seller) get some money Anything Collectables will always have a price tag - I collect games for the pleasure I get from them and not what I could get in return value and my Historical Archive obtained legally has reached over 1000 titles so it is possible without Piracy.

It's not a tangible thing like a classic car, it's a piece of intellectual property

It's one and the same thing - both a game and a Classic car are intellectual property as Design/Ideas etc etc has gone into both products

Don't take my views the wrong way, I'd much rather the developer/publisher just do a reprint, get another batch of games out there for purchase, I don't jive with the people that say don't reprint games, you'll devalue my collection. Bubkis I say to them.

I pay for my content, I rarely nab a movie, I use netflix, cable, the local movie store, amazon.com etc.... Music through Itunes and Amazon.

Let me ask the question, what's worse. Pirating an out of print game like Neverwinter Nights and sending the original developer/publisher 50 bucks in the mail or buying it used for 100 bucks and the owners of the IP see none of that. I'd like to think that choice a is a better choice, ethically.

That's like saying I won't buy a second hand car because the maker is not getting the money so I'll go and steal it instead.

[AstralWanderer]

Everyone that downloads pirated versions of games or cracks for whatever reason, supports piracy. No matter what your personal justifications are for doing so, it still supports it. After all, if nobody downloaded anything illegally, there would be no reason to have it available.

So someone who found themselves having to use a crack to play a purchased game due to overzealous DRM (e.g. Starforce) would, in your eyes, be supporting piracy? Someone who makes a copy of a game disk so their children can use/abuse/break the copy without harming the original is supporting piracy? Someone who makes a backup of software (again which they have purchased) in case of loss of media (CD's scratch easily) is supporting piracy? If that is really your view, then I guess you probably haven't played games for very long, let alone invested any significant amount of money in them, to realise what a fragile commodity they can be without proper precautions.

I do purchase games, but only if there is either no CD/online verification or if a crack is available. In my case, sites like GameCopyWorld have benefited game publishers and authors since I tend to avoid unlisted games unless I find out they are DRM-free through other means. I have had to replace 2 CDs which became damaged due to my not using cracks to disable program checks, and I have no intention of losing more (especially since finding replacements for no-longer-sold games is very much a hit-and-miss affair).

No, I am not rich. I see no reason to be a thief. Let us call it for what it is theft.

No it isn't - unauthorised duplication is a more accurate term. Theft involves taking an item from a person, with the intention of permanently depriving them of it. Any argument that tries to equate the two is flawed at best, and pandering to the likes of RIAA/MPAA ideology at worst.

Supporting authors by buying their products is a Proper and Right Thing To Do. Saying that not doing so is a criminal (as opposed to a civil) act however, simply plays into the hands of the DRM brigade, which makes life miserable for legitimate customers and unnecessarily polarises the debate.

Ultimately, piracy is part of the software ecosystem whether users or authors like it or not. The most sensible course of action for authors is to use it as a sales channel and try to persuade downloaders (who must have at least some interest in the game) to purchase. That not only saves time, effort and lost sales compared to the "obnoxious DRM route" but can also cut the need to advertise (assuming the game is a good one). This has been the experience for many independent musicians and I don't see why this cannot extend to computer software also.

[BasiliskWrangler]

Everyone pirates. Right now, everyone reading this has some ripped music, a cracked game, or a downloaded movie sitting somewhere on their hard drive. People who pirate are not evil or bad, they are just normal people.

However, there is a very important fact that everyone needs to remember: when you pirate something it hurts everyone, even yourself. Pirating drives up the price of games, movies and CDs, it forces developers to use DRM and shit like Starforce, and it can put small developers in the grave.

If you find something that you like- a cool movie, a talented musical artist, or a game developer that has made an awesome game- it is your personal responsibility to support them! Not supporting something that you enjoy is the equivalent of saying you don't enjoy it- that you have no desire to ever see or hear or experience anything like that ever again.

So, as I said above, people who pirate are not evil or bad. However, if you really enjoy a product that you didn't pay for, then you are a fool. You are eventually going to force the very thing that you enjoy from ever being made again. It's rather like you are poisoning your own drinking water.

[realmzmaster]

Unauthorized duplication can only occur if you bought the game in the first place. I have no problem with someone who has legitimately bought a game making a copy of it for their personal use. If you do not own an original copy of the game and get it from a pirate site that is theft of IP. If you own the game and upload a copy for everyone to download you are wrong! If you make unauthorized copies for sale it is theft. The FBI and other law officials do not see it as a civil case. If you want companies to keep making games or music you have to support them, if not they will simply close up shop and find some other way to make a living. You have to remember when you pirate a game and upload for everyone else to steal you are taking money out of the pockets of the people who made the game. EA, Microsoft, Atari and all the other publishers employ people. If the company does not make money, people lose their jobs. And do not give me that crap about they are a big company. If the company does not sell its product even the mighty fall. Basilisk games is a small indie, it most definitely cannot afford to lose sales. If you want to see Eschalon II and III you have to support them.

[chamr]

Oh for goodness sakes. Virtually every licensing agreement, software, music, movies, whatever, allows for duplication for your own private use of materials you have already paid for. This has never been considered piracy in the legal sense. You're even allowed to make mixed-tape like stuff for your family and friends and be perfectly within the law. Piracy, in general, is either never paying for something or paying for it, and then distributing copies of it widely enough to the extent that no one could reasonably say it was just for your own, personal use.

And sorry, Thom, but I have never pirated in the legal sense. Not everyone does it.

Let's all try to be adults about this subject, m'kay? There is no legitimate excuse for it. Not the "try before you buy" excuse. Not the "it's unfairly expensive" excuse. Not the "any copy you make is piracy, so piracy is OK" excuse. Not the "everyone does it" excuse. None of them. It's just good, old fashioned stealing, no matter how anyone tries to rationalize it. Plain and simple.

[VPeric]

And sorry, Thom, but I have never pirated in the legal sense. Everyone does not do it.

I think you wanted to say: "Not everyone does it."

[chamr]

And sorry, Thom, but I have never pirated in the legal sense. Everyone does not do it.

I think you wanted to say: "Not everyone does it."

You're right. Thank you, Sir Editor.

[BasiliskWrangler]

Point taken, chamr. That was an unfair blanket accusation. And of course I wasn't condoning the practice by any means! I just know that people who pirate something they enjoy are foolishly ruining it for themselves. I can't understand why these people don't see that.

[Effidian]

<stuff>

What you listed was justifications for using the products of piracy. Your second paragraph listed the way to not use piracy. Don't buy the product if the license agreement doesn't allow you to do what you want with it.

Think about it, what does "supporting piracy" mean? There are 2 different entities in piracy, those that create the pirated copies, and those that consume them. If you are either one, you support piracy. If you consume the goods and justify the use for whatever reason, that's up to you, but it is still supporting piracy.

If everyone stopped buying games with DRM, then companies would stop using them. Buying the game with DRM and then using a crack doesn't help the situation at all. It doesn't send a message to the company saying that you don't like DRM, and it doesn't send a message to anyone saying that cracks aren't used.