Unbalanced mage to warrior paths
Thomas, there is a definite spell cap. The most damage you can do with any spell is starting damage X 6. A spell can't be cast at higher than 6th level. No melee class has this restriction. Not only this, but you don't score criticals with spells, no nefarious bonus, nothing. This particular game HEAVILY favors melee builds. You'll never see a magic spell cause 141 or even 94 points of damage. These are attainable in melee. Melee has no stamina level to offset the mana drainage either. You can whack with your sword all day and night and never get tired. A mage can throw 2-4 high level spells and will need to rest for quite some time til he can attack again.
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realmzmaster
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Most crpg tend to favor the melee fighters initially. The typical image of the mage is one devoted totally to the pursuit of magic neglecting the skills of weaponry ,armor and strength building. Therefore mages are pretty weak in the beginning stages. Which is why most spellcasters traveled with melee characters to gain experience and protection. Once the spellcaster reached a high enough level they could travel alone and handle everything in their path. 
The melee character on the other hand must engage in stength building to be able to wear armor and wield swords. Therefore their stamina will be greater. But, melee characters should not be able to swing the sword forever without penalty. You could have a stamina meter that once exhausted hit points would start to be affected. The stamina meter could only be replenished by resting. You could also allow the mage to convert hit points to mana once the mana points run out. Either way if the fighter overexerts he/she dies. If the mage cast to many spells he/she dies. But having said that remember that mages can damage from a distance and affect large groups even at low levels. Spells like sleep could affect more than one character. The melee character can realistically fight one or two foes even if they are low level monsters. The mage can take out groups of low level to high level monsters at one time with the appropriate spell. The melee character would have to use demon oil or incinerator fuel to affect large groups. If you are going to cap the spell level you should allow the spell's power to increase with preception to a point. But, a game that allows a 17th level fireball with no restrictions could cause seroius game imbalance, the game monsters would have to be very high powered to survive it. A 17th level fighter can still only attack one or two monsters at a time, no matter how powerful. There is a limit to how many foes a melee character can handle at one time. The old martail arts movies have the main character fighting 20 or 30 foes at a time. But that is just fantasy, even the best martial artist is going to hard pressed when three or more people gang up on him/her. As i said before the mage also has the advantage of distance unless they are using touch spells (can we say suicide or facing archers). Distance gives them a running start on retreat. If the melee character tries to turn and run, the foes get a free shot at him/her. So playing the spellcaster can be a little more trying, but it can be done.
The melee character on the other hand must engage in stength building to be able to wear armor and wield swords. Therefore their stamina will be greater. But, melee characters should not be able to swing the sword forever without penalty. You could have a stamina meter that once exhausted hit points would start to be affected. The stamina meter could only be replenished by resting. You could also allow the mage to convert hit points to mana once the mana points run out. Either way if the fighter overexerts he/she dies. If the mage cast to many spells he/she dies. But having said that remember that mages can damage from a distance and affect large groups even at low levels. Spells like sleep could affect more than one character. The melee character can realistically fight one or two foes even if they are low level monsters. The mage can take out groups of low level to high level monsters at one time with the appropriate spell. The melee character would have to use demon oil or incinerator fuel to affect large groups. If you are going to cap the spell level you should allow the spell's power to increase with preception to a point. But, a game that allows a 17th level fireball with no restrictions could cause seroius game imbalance, the game monsters would have to be very high powered to survive it. A 17th level fighter can still only attack one or two monsters at a time, no matter how powerful. There is a limit to how many foes a melee character can handle at one time. The old martail arts movies have the main character fighting 20 or 30 foes at a time. But that is just fantasy, even the best martial artist is going to hard pressed when three or more people gang up on him/her. As i said before the mage also has the advantage of distance unless they are using touch spells (can we say suicide or facing archers). Distance gives them a running start on retreat. If the melee character tries to turn and run, the foes get a free shot at him/her. So playing the spellcaster can be a little more trying, but it can be done.History is written by the winners!
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leonhartt
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Well, the spell damage caps, i.e. level 6 can still remain. What i think is that we need to have higher damage output for the higher level spells, i.e. supernova.
Right now, supernova just doesn't do enough damage per mana point for me to use it frequently. I rather walk around and gather the creeps together and use fireballs or compress atmosphere at them.
I agree with realmzmaster that a level 17th fireball will cause serious game imbalances. Perhaps magic damage can be linked and give extra magic bonus damage to spells, instead of pushing the spell level cap beyond level 6.
Like the old thread on the magic system said before, the current spells are mana-efficient, but they're not necessarily damage-efficient to make them more favorable than lower-level spells.
Right now, supernova just doesn't do enough damage per mana point for me to use it frequently. I rather walk around and gather the creeps together and use fireballs or compress atmosphere at them.
I agree with realmzmaster that a level 17th fireball will cause serious game imbalances. Perhaps magic damage can be linked and give extra magic bonus damage to spells, instead of pushing the spell level cap beyond level 6.
Like the old thread on the magic system said before, the current spells are mana-efficient, but they're not necessarily damage-efficient to make them more favorable than lower-level spells.
I completely disagree with the OP.
Sure, if you play a mage in a non-optimal fashion, he will suck in this game compared to a warrior. I.e. if you want a nuke mage, you're playing the wrong game. Perhaps there should be a separate class of 'nuke mage', however with the game as it is, you can't just state that a class is weak because you choose not to use the right skills. Its like building an unarmed warrior and saying his damage sucks vs. a swordfighter.
Conversely, if you use a mage as designed, pretty much nothing will stop him. In particular, you need to create a guy that can wear armor, and use weapons - we're not playing 1st ed D&D here where a mage wears only robes and carries a dagger more for ornamentation than anything else.
Where the mage gets huge benefits to a warrior is he isn't item dependent, and he can translate mana into any other characteristic or skill he needs (from hp, to rogue skills, to weapon skills and damage, to pure utility like portal). Throw in the cheapness of alchemy and you have a powerhouse.
To give a concrete example - drop your level 15 warrior naked into the arena in the vault, he's gonna die. Your mage at level 10 should be able to survive that fight.
Add the fact that you can then layer on items to the mage build with pretty much no restrictions, and what you have is a completely overpowered character.
Sure, if you play a mage in a non-optimal fashion, he will suck in this game compared to a warrior. I.e. if you want a nuke mage, you're playing the wrong game. Perhaps there should be a separate class of 'nuke mage', however with the game as it is, you can't just state that a class is weak because you choose not to use the right skills. Its like building an unarmed warrior and saying his damage sucks vs. a swordfighter.
Conversely, if you use a mage as designed, pretty much nothing will stop him. In particular, you need to create a guy that can wear armor, and use weapons - we're not playing 1st ed D&D here where a mage wears only robes and carries a dagger more for ornamentation than anything else.
Where the mage gets huge benefits to a warrior is he isn't item dependent, and he can translate mana into any other characteristic or skill he needs (from hp, to rogue skills, to weapon skills and damage, to pure utility like portal). Throw in the cheapness of alchemy and you have a powerhouse.
To give a concrete example - drop your level 15 warrior naked into the arena in the vault, he's gonna die. Your mage at level 10 should be able to survive that fight.
Add the fact that you can then layer on items to the mage build with pretty much no restrictions, and what you have is a completely overpowered character.
Loriac I think the point being that you are hard pressed to play a pure wizard character. I mean sure if you are going to do some type of half melee super power gaming build, that would be over powered.
But if you arnt into being the most overpowered thing imaginable and actualy want to role play, some things need to be changed for wizard. I managed to work my way through the game selling everything and spending it all on potions - and it was hard and also fun, but i can see were people are coming from with there complaints.
I for one just think that perhaps mana regen shouldnt have a roof on it - and if you drop enough points you can get one mana per step. Also before you say anything, spending more of your points into perception etc, would deviate from strength - limiting item usage. So you would be hard pressed to "layer on items" with bugger all str.
Its pointless trying to say that the disadvantage of melee classes is they are item dependent. This isnt a mmorpg and items are easy as hell to get.
But if you arnt into being the most overpowered thing imaginable and actualy want to role play, some things need to be changed for wizard. I managed to work my way through the game selling everything and spending it all on potions - and it was hard and also fun, but i can see were people are coming from with there complaints.
I for one just think that perhaps mana regen shouldnt have a roof on it - and if you drop enough points you can get one mana per step. Also before you say anything, spending more of your points into perception etc, would deviate from strength - limiting item usage. So you would be hard pressed to "layer on items" with bugger all str.
Its pointless trying to say that the disadvantage of melee classes is they are item dependent. This isnt a mmorpg and items are easy as hell to get.
[quote="Ihsan"]Loriac I think the point being that you are hard pressed to play a pure wizard character.quote]
This is the key issue. In this game, as it stands, there is no 'pure mage'. When you create one, you are basically handicapping yourself, and really you're playing a challenge game version of Eschalon.
The way the system is set up, you can't just power up the mage to make a 'pure mage' playable; if you do, then the other options you have as a mage in this game, i.e. with armor, weapons, and a rounded skill set, would be completely overpowered.
So to get a 'pure mage' template, you would have to restrict access to other skills, certain types of weapon and armor etc.
This is a fundamental redesign of the character rules.
I don't think pure melee is overpowered in this game. What is overpowered is the synergy you get when you create a balanced character, i.e. good all-round skills. But this, as I understand it, was how the game was designed, i.e. as a single character game, your character needs to be able to do everything. To argue that a 'pure caster' is not as good as a 'pure melee' is missing the point entirely.
This is the key issue. In this game, as it stands, there is no 'pure mage'. When you create one, you are basically handicapping yourself, and really you're playing a challenge game version of Eschalon.
The way the system is set up, you can't just power up the mage to make a 'pure mage' playable; if you do, then the other options you have as a mage in this game, i.e. with armor, weapons, and a rounded skill set, would be completely overpowered.
So to get a 'pure mage' template, you would have to restrict access to other skills, certain types of weapon and armor etc.
This is a fundamental redesign of the character rules.
I don't think pure melee is overpowered in this game. What is overpowered is the synergy you get when you create a balanced character, i.e. good all-round skills. But this, as I understand it, was how the game was designed, i.e. as a single character game, your character needs to be able to do everything. To argue that a 'pure caster' is not as good as a 'pure melee' is missing the point entirely.
I attempted to play this game as a "pure" mage but I buckled in and picked up swords at around level 14. At that point every random encounter involved Taurex and there was absolutely no way to finish them off using spells of any sort without chugging through like 3 or 4 mana potions and a few health potions.
It's pretty sad really that now all I do when I have to fight something is cast Invisibilty (to reduce their chance to hit) and Haste and proceed to wail on the enemies with my sword. What sucks is that, Fire Dart is still the most effective spell I can use, in terms of damage to mana spent efficiency, but that doesn't cut it at all. I could use Compress Atmosphere but only if the enemies were positioned just right, and even then I'd only have enough mana for 1 maybe 2 encounters. The damage scaling for spells in the mid to late game is just downright terrible.
In retrospect I wouldn't have bothered to get my mana above 200 because really using the invisible hasted sword technique I only need about 100 to perpetually adventure. I think there are plenty of small changes that could be made to help out the offensive spell caster.
For one, how about enabling critical hits for spells? Make the critical hit rate based off your skill in elemental (or divine) similar to how it works with weapon skill, although maybe at half of that rate. Also how about making Nefarious damage apply to spell casting? I went nefarious on my mage, since the description did not clearly state that spells were exempt. I think that's somewhat bogus, either make the distinction or make it work.
On that note, why does the Evil Amulet modify spell damage, while the Assassin's Ring or the Irion Gauntlets of the Overlord don't? Nothing on the latter items would suggest that the damage bonus would not apply to spells.
Finally how about making it so that Int and Wis modify damage for spells of their respective schools. I mean I was looking through the Destroyer thread, and on the last page there's this guy who dumped 48 points into Int. I guess he didn't realize that Int doesn't really mattter over 20 except for magick resistance (but really there are only so many Dimensional Eyes and ok I guess there's infinite Poltergeists). Heck, real power gamers would know to not even bother with 20 Int, they'd keep it at 10 and wear equipment (once) so that they could learn all of their elemental spells. /rant
Anyway, sorry about that. I'm still looking forward to Book II but I'm eniterely sure that I'm going to be rolling a melee (with just enough stats to buff), that is unless the spell damage system gets tweaked a bit.
It's pretty sad really that now all I do when I have to fight something is cast Invisibilty (to reduce their chance to hit) and Haste and proceed to wail on the enemies with my sword. What sucks is that, Fire Dart is still the most effective spell I can use, in terms of damage to mana spent efficiency, but that doesn't cut it at all. I could use Compress Atmosphere but only if the enemies were positioned just right, and even then I'd only have enough mana for 1 maybe 2 encounters. The damage scaling for spells in the mid to late game is just downright terrible.
In retrospect I wouldn't have bothered to get my mana above 200 because really using the invisible hasted sword technique I only need about 100 to perpetually adventure. I think there are plenty of small changes that could be made to help out the offensive spell caster.
For one, how about enabling critical hits for spells? Make the critical hit rate based off your skill in elemental (or divine) similar to how it works with weapon skill, although maybe at half of that rate. Also how about making Nefarious damage apply to spell casting? I went nefarious on my mage, since the description did not clearly state that spells were exempt. I think that's somewhat bogus, either make the distinction or make it work.
On that note, why does the Evil Amulet modify spell damage, while the Assassin's Ring or the Irion Gauntlets of the Overlord don't? Nothing on the latter items would suggest that the damage bonus would not apply to spells.
Finally how about making it so that Int and Wis modify damage for spells of their respective schools. I mean I was looking through the Destroyer thread, and on the last page there's this guy who dumped 48 points into Int. I guess he didn't realize that Int doesn't really mattter over 20 except for magick resistance (but really there are only so many Dimensional Eyes and ok I guess there's infinite Poltergeists). Heck, real power gamers would know to not even bother with 20 Int, they'd keep it at 10 and wear equipment (once) so that they could learn all of their elemental spells. /rant
Anyway, sorry about that. I'm still looking forward to Book II but I'm eniterely sure that I'm going to be rolling a melee (with just enough stats to buff), that is unless the spell damage system gets tweaked a bit.
My prime char (i.e. the one furthest along) is mostly a Ranger, so excuse my ignorance on the late game Mage conundrum, but have you guys been making heavy use of Fortify Mana potions? Seems to me that cutting the mana cost in half for your spells in a big battle would address one of the problems, at least...
I made a very long post about this exact subject. It's impossible to play a pure mage in this game. There's simply no way to do it unless you want to carry around hundreds of potions, and shop-scum so that you'll always have enough ingredients.
http://www.basiliskgames.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=657
I don't know why people keep bringing up mana regen when it comes to complaints about wizard spells. 1/3 mana regen per turn is no different than 1/12 mana regen per turn even in long fights considering the fact that fire dart level 6 costs 12 mana.
Jazzepi
http://www.basiliskgames.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=657
I don't know why people keep bringing up mana regen when it comes to complaints about wizard spells. 1/3 mana regen per turn is no different than 1/12 mana regen per turn even in long fights considering the fact that fire dart level 6 costs 12 mana.
Jazzepi
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realmzmaster
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Playing a pure mage in most crpgs is difficult. In NWN and NWN2 if you want to be a pure mage you need to have a henchmen that can absorb most of the damage while you sling spells. Plain and simple mages usually are not good in melee. In close combat with a fighter most mages are DOA. The mage must use distance to his/her advantage. In most crpgs, mages represent the artillery. Their job is to do damage at a distance to soften up the enemy melee fighters or target the enemy spellcasters, same with a pure archer ( if such a creature exists). As far as the D & D world, when pure mages are concerned you can have varying differences Elminster, one of the most powerful mages can wield a sword well, by contrast Raistlin who is a pure mage cannot wield one very well and depends on his bother Caramon to protect him. But, that is because they received their magic in different ways. Raistlin under went the trials in the Tower of High Sorcery. His body was effectively broken. While Elminster received his by a kiss from the Goddess of Magic. A pure mage is not impossible in Eschalon, just difficult. Hit, run and rest are necessary if you play a pure mage. I am sure BW and the others look at all of the classes and tried to balance them as best as possible without unbalancing the game.
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BasiliskWrangler
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Well said. Pure mages are not for the timid, and any RPG that makes mage classes easy isn't a real, old-school RPG.realmzmaster wrote:Playing a pure mage in most crpgs is difficult.
Yep. I've played a pure mage from start to finish. Granted, I have supreme knowledge of the way the system works, but it can be done and really nowhere near "impossible". However, Jassepi is right in that having a lot of potions to quickly regain mana and HP is a necessity. But again, this is old-school.realmzmaster wrote:A pure mage is not impossible in Eschalon, just difficult
That's true. The thing is, I don't think of a mage as a combative class like a fighter; you shouldn't engage in combat every chance you get. Just the opposite actually. When I play a mage, I only attack when I need to or when I have a clear advantage, especially at higher levels. There nothing wrong with a mage using invisibility to skirt a battlefield without being attacked. You must use your strongest skills to your advantage regardless of what class you play.Dymalos wrote:I attempted to play this game as a "pure" mage but I buckled in and picked up swords at around level 14. At that point every random encounter involved Taurex and there was absolutely no way to finish them off using spells of any sort without chugging through like 3 or 4 mana potions and a few health potions.
Having said all this, I do feel that upper range offensive magic needs to be boosted. This will be addressed in the next patch.