FEEDBACK - almost enjoyed it.

[kwokkie]

Acoustibop, this page mentions a 1.67GHz model of the G4... maybe there have been some revisions of the G4 models?
Anyway, I'm not familiar with macs either...

[Rune_74]

My question for him is...why hasn't he ever listed his system specs....seems really odd not to.

[acoustibop]

Hm, those specs are for Powerbooks, kwokkie which, as I understand it, and from the illustrations, are laptops. single player did refer to his machine as "a pc." Of course, there may also be G4 machines with 1.67GHz processors, but even that still falls short of the recommended minimum.

But neither of us knows much about Macs. That's why I asked single player to detail his specs; perhaps that might shed some light on the matter.

[macdude22]

single player, one thing puzzles me about your complaint in this thread. If I'm not mistaken, the crux of your complaint is that, although your computer meets or exceeds Eschalon: Book 1's requirements, the game performs very badly on your computer.

However, the only description of your machine that I can find in this thread is

my PC (macintosh G4, OS 10.4).

I'm not too familiar with Macs, so I did a quick search for G4 specs and found this page. As far as I can see, it quotes processor speeds as between 350 and 733MHz, except for dual processors, which are 450 to 533MHz for G4s.

Looking at the Eschalon: Book 1 purchase page, the minimum specs include a 1.8GHz processor. Now, as I understand it, Macs use the processor considerably more effectively than many other OSs, but nevertheless, it seems to me that there's a considerable shortfall between the minimum stated requirement and your processor speed.

I may be completely wrong: I know very little about Macs. Could you perhaps state the actual specifications of the machine you're having speed problems with?

The G4 actually runs up to 2.0 (in upgrade cards) I think 1.42 was the fastest Apple used in a production machine (other than the few 1.5 minis that made their way out). One thing to consider is that older G4 computers also will have older video cards so you've probably got a double whammy against good performance there. The G4 was a tank in it's time but it's an aging processor. To be honest the game should run fine on any Mac made in the past 3 years (and likely quite a bit further back, at least most G5s and later G4s).

I think some may have some unreasonable expectations based on the other contender in the retro market, Spiderweb. To be honest Book I is much more advanced graphically and much more portable because of it's Blitz development. Spiderweb games run on some pretty aging hardware, but in the same respect that older support has caused some issues since now some of the games have graphics issues with 10.5. There's always a pro/con argument to be had. I would say the benefit of Basilisk's development cycle outweighs excluding a few older machines in increased sales across multiple platforms. A.K.A. I think that cross platform sales will number greater than older computers that may have been supported under a different development environment but only being released on a single platform.


Besides there is a Demo, this seems like a moot point, you can try before you buy. You can't claim oh noes I bought it but now it runs like garbage when there is every opportunity to verify performance.

[acoustibop]

Yes, in fact, as a Linux user, the cross platform possibilities are very important to me, macdude22!

So, from what you're saying, it looks as if, at the top end at least, a G4 should run Eschalon: Book 1 Ok. So this still leaves us waiting to hear from single player as to his actual specs...

Edit: found a thread in the Macintosh section that spreads a little light on this.

[realmzmaster]

If he will not list his system specifications, it would lead me to believe that his specifications fall below the minimum requirements. I am all for giving the benefit of the doubt, but eventually facts must be forthcoming. Not only that we should note that BW specified that the minimum requirements were an estimate. I sure he tried to test the game on a variety of equipment. People with older processors and/or older video cards or older OSes will most likely have problems running the game. Let's face it very few publishers are into cross platform compatability. I give a tip of the visor to those who attempt the effort. And if using Blitz Max makes that possible I am all for it. Gives me more people to muse, debate, share tips with.

[Shoveler]

[quote="acoustibop"]single player, one thing puzzles me about your complaint in this thread. If I'm not mistaken, the crux of your complaint is that, although your computer meets or exceeds Eschalon: Book 1's requirements, the game performs very badly on your computer.

However, the only description of your machine that I can find in this thread is [quote]my PC (macintosh G4, OS 10.4).[/quote]

I'm not too familiar with Macs, so I did a quick search for G4 specs and found [url=http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=58418]this page[/url]. As far as I can see, it quotes processor speeds as between 350 and 733MHz, except for dual processors, which are 450 to 533MHz for G4s.

Looking at the Eschalon: Book 1 purchase page, the minimum specs include a 1.8GHz processor. Now, as I understand it, Macs use the processor considerably more effectively than many other OSs, but nevertheless, it seems to me that there's a considerable shortfall between the minimum stated requirement and your processor speed.

I may be completely wrong: I know very little about Macs. Could you perhaps state the actual specifications of the machine you're having speed problems with?[/quote]

Ouch! Haven't seen a burn like that in a while.
You guys are bothering with this guy to much. He obviously doesn't care what is said, what he describes is entirely a performance issue on HIS part. And he definitly falls below the minimum specs, despite what he says. He's just trying to goad you all into a flame war.
-Shov

[macdude22]

Yes, in fact, as a Linux user, the cross platform possibilities are very important to me, macdude22!

So, from what you're saying, it looks as if, at the top end at least, a G4 should run Eschalon: Book 1 Ok. So this still leaves us waiting to hear from single player as to his actual specs...

Edit: found a thread in the Macintosh section that spreads a little light on this.

I agree that the use of a high level language to compile for multiple platforms easily outweighs the performance hit.

Given the architecture differences between x86 and PPC (and my limited PPC testing) I'd estimate that you probably need a minimum of a G4 1.25 and Radeon 9200 for acceptable performance. I've tested on a 1.5 with a radeon 9700 and performance was fine. I believe it's been tested on a 1.42 Mini with a Radeon 9200 with acceptable (I think around rating 12) performance as well.

The G4 architecture was limited to 167mhz of memory bandwidth as well. I'm not versed in OpenGL programming (or much programming in general) but I suspect that the bus speed on the G4 machines may not provide a wide enough pipe for optimal OpenGL performance. Perhaps I can defer to someone with more OpenGL experience about the memory bandwidth requirements of interacting with OpenGL. The G5 did not suffer from this bandwidth limitation.

I'm going to digg around in the shed and see what I can find for PPC machines and do a bit more testing. I know there's a G4 800 in there maybe a 1.25 and I know I have a Radeon 9000 card as well. Yes I'm a Macintosh Pack Rat Whore (there is a large smattering of generic PC parts in there as well). At any given time there are at least 3 Macs running here(and that's only due to lack of space in my Apt, if I buy a house next year it's gunna be balls to the wall).

[Psy-Phi]

I'm using my laptop to play this game more than my PC (holidays, not home so I put it on here my laptop, which is a 1.6ghz Pentium M & 512mb of RAM and a intel based videocard 950 I think...not sure though and don't feel like checking as it's not too important to what I have to say).

The game works fine most of the time, performance is never above 5, but even when its at 2, in a forested area (like the lake south of Bordertown) it will get ridiculously slow...about half speed. And the thing is it doesn't do it everywhere, near the edges of the map I'm good, and near the house in that particular map I'm good too). It perplexes me because the perf isn't going down at all, stays at 2-3.

Anyone else experience similar? I mean, it is under the requirements so I can sort of understand why. But just today, in Blackwater it began doing it...now this is only odd because it hadn't done it at all until I entered the town for a third time, doing the quest to run the heavy metal from Bordertown to Blackwater....

It apparently seems like it may have something to do with the quest log or available quests. I would have noticed if this were the case for the forested area too, but I copied my save from the PC to the laptop and was in the cave to kill the queen bee (and it was smooth in there) but on the way out it was slow. I'll try testing some other day...but I thought this would be a good thread to mention this in, as it seems to pertain to performance and the relation to actual speed percieved.

Could anyone tell me why my performance would be rated so good, but still slow down at times? I can't walk through Blackwater at all now without it being slow...when I had no problem before....

[steelcaress]

Old may not be the issue. 2.4 GHz Celeron, 64 MB video card, 512 MB RAM, and my mother-in-law's computer runs the game at a crawl.

The walking speed was slow on my computer until I switched to OPENGL. No issues there.

The speed issues have to do with what your computer was built for. If you bought a "multimedia computer" right off the shelf, with onboard video and sound, then of course you're going to have performance problems.

If you designed your computer from the ground up to be a gaming computer (*raises hand now*), gathering the parts from all over, then you shouldn't have any speed issues. It may not be an issue of age, but rather of utility.

[acoustibop]

I guess another problem with 'a "multimedia computer" right off the shelf' and the average user might be all the rubbish it has running in the background. Not only regular Windows stuff, but all the extra stuff the owner thought it would be a good idea to have running, stuff they have running without realising it, virus checker... this can make for a serious performance hit on a lot of systems.

And that's apart from any malware that may be running, too...

[Opunaesala]

My Laptop runs the game without any slowdown what so ever. 2.2 GHZ duo processor, 2 Gigs of RAM, 256 MB video card. Good Stuff.

[realmzmaster]

I have had no problems with speed running it on both of my machines. The oldest one being a EMachine T2260 with 1.8 GHz Athlon, 512MB RAM, Nvidia GeForce 6200 with 128MB and 200 GB Hard Drive running XP. I suspect most of the problem lies in the video card and the amount of RAM. Integrated video cards might also be the problem. Most integrated video does not have it own dedicated RAM. Also some video cards do not support some of the effects used in Eschalon. The Nvidia GeForce 6200 I use is at least two years old. I have a hunch that it all comes down to the video. You may be able to get away with a average video card with a beefier processor, or a have a good video card with an adequate processor, but not both an average or lesser video card and less than adequate processor. I do not know, I am only guessing. My other machineis 3.0Ghz Pentinum D with 1 GB RAM, with a Nividia GeForce 7800 with 256MB and 200 GB hard drive. No, I do not upgrade my machines constantly. In fact both machines were bought used off of Ebay for less than $350. But, YMMV.

[PaSquall]

No real problem with speed here (at least for the demo). The game slows down sometimes, but it usually doesn't last more than 15-20 seconds. After, it's back to normal for 5 minutes or so. I didn't notice any pattern in the slowdowns, the only thing is that I never have slowdowns in the dungeons, so the problem could come from the light and effects calculations of the software, or my substandard graphic card, or both.
I have an athlon 2800+, 512 MB RAM, FX5200 with 64 MB RAM, XP sp2.

[Maximous]

Speed isn't so much an issue, if I only "KNEW" where I was going.

The maps need labels, ANYTHING to let me know where I am; overlay of my hand held map on the interface map, actually "map" <m> key, be able to put push-pins and label map myself.

I was lost most of the time--hence----traveling was slow....I spent 1.5 hours trying to find "Aridell." That is not a joke...my hand held map and the interface map never jived, I couldn't tell where I was. Finding quests, graves , new locations, old locations, was very difficult and frustrating. Right now my play time says 18.8 hours, 9.4 hours of that is trying to figure out where I am or need to go next.

I'd still buy Eschalon: Book II, because the story is great...please fix the maps!