Temple of Elemental Evil - the best RPG I almost didn't play

[getter77]

Seems to me getting to hung on up nomenclature and the like won't really lead anywhere.

Way I see it, this all boils down to some different stylings. I've not even played an Infinity Engine games nor ToEE yet...but I'm pretty sure this is the root issue. Either:

-The "story" IS the combat/fights themselves that shapes your own personal narrative in the setting the game puts you in. Somewhat like the harrowing, personal tales of wonder that you can track down amid the Roguelike fans....especially Dwarf Fortress notably as of late.

-The "story" is an actual written script designed to be the frame of reference the game leads you along until the credits....not unlike how there's technically "variety" in a Choose Your Own Adventure book. Combat/fights are designed to be implemented only in a way and pace that fits in with the particular narrative style the game ascribes to.

Due to the game design culture, especially the business end, inclined moreso towards "Hollywood" and "the art crowd" in these last several years---they REALLY aim to ape the other comparable fiction oriented industries by indulging in the best kind of mimicry they can muster so that one day they too can rub elbows with the upper echelons and thrust gaming into that same kind of "mainstream" that novels, movies, TV shows, etc bask in. Visceral, "personal" gaming styles (the first type I can only vaguely describe) fell by the wayside in part due to this phenomenon.

My take? The one "obvious" thing to do...that has not been done in the past because it was probably not technically there yet, is a "Natural Law and Effect of the Unnatural" cRPG (or jRPG, wRPG...really doesn't matter).

The perceived "onus" of the more combat oriented RPGs thus far lies in their HEAVY reliance on math and formulas...daunting to all but the intrepid and ill suited to tempt the general audience compared to the more "Adventureish" games the primarily just need them to be able to hear and see the narrative. In order to solve this, there needs to be an "overt" detachment from the mathematical style rooted in DnD and the like that while standing the test of time...does just that----stands there not terribly like a monolithic ivory tower.

Basically, proper physics, heat dynamics, electric dynamics...and so on need to become the "core ruleset" along with logic amid the supernatural. If you throw even a tiny ball of fire, a staple "meh" DnD attack at some Human Bandit's face....the results of the real time, or semi realtime hit, should likely be blindness/pain/unconsciousness/death. Why?....because that is the logical conclusion any player in the world would draw from such a scenario.

Do this kind of stuff for an entire game...and you will grow the "cRPG" audience to a point where it is actually a fight against the Narrative focused mentality again in the mindshare.

Sorry for the length.

[PaSquall]

Misconception as to who's belief of what cRpg is? Roleplayng means to take the control of/pretend to be...a person etc. I don't believe the combat engine character development decides that a game is a CRpg, I just think that decides on what kind of cRpg it is, some are stat heavy and some are story heavy. In all, any game you control someone and develop them through out the game is a cRpg, not just the ones that feature stat heavy engines.

Couldn't have said it better, the combat engine has nothing to do with the fact that a game is a CRPG or not. The most important is if the character/party can interact with the world and shape his own history. The Baldur's gate games (especially #2), with specific side quests for each party member, different ways tho solve some quests and various outcomes in the end, are excellent CRPGs.

[Horace2]

Misconception as to who's belief of what cRpg is? Roleplayng means to take the control of/pretend to be...a person etc. I don't believe the combat engine character development decides that a game is a CRpg, I just think that decides on what kind of cRpg it is, some are stat heavy and some are story heavy. In all, any game you control someone and develop them through out the game is a cRpg, not just the ones that feature stat heavy engines.

Couldn't have said it better, the combat engine has nothing to do with the fact that a game is a CRPG or not. The most important is if the character/party can interact with the world and shape his own history. The Baldur's gate games (especially #2), with specific side quests for each party member, different ways tho solve some quests and various outcomes in the end, are excellent CRPGs.

What you describe, if removed from a quantitative combat/character progression ruleset, is an adventure game.

Anything else is just an arbitrary redefinition of terms that already have perfectly good definitions.

You should familiarize yourself with games like King's Quest; these were adventure games that are exactly what you describe BG2 as being.

In fact, any game without a quantitative ruleset for combat/char development cannot be considered an RPG by any historical or well accepted definition; or at least they cannot be *more accurately* termed an RPG rather than an Adventure game. Adventure game is simply a better fit.

[sirchet]

I just thought I'd let you guys know that Shiningted and the gang over at the Co8 are very close to releasing "The Keep on the Borderlands", a complete remake using the ToEE game engine.

Like some of the other posters said, Co8 has done a great job of squashing a majority of the bugs that made this great game almost unplayable.

The "Front End Loader" alone is a great improvement, allowing you to load whichever mod you want, or just the standard (vanilla) version of ToEE.

[screeg]

Couple of KotB links for your edification:

media forum and demo announcement: http://www.co8.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=45
screeg's gallery: http://www-personal.umich.edu/~hamms/po ... meenv.html

The demo will be released January 29, 2008 and is large. It's definitely worth rolling up a party for, not just a little 5 hour glance.

[Rune_74]

Misconception as to who's belief of what cRpg is? Roleplayng means to take the control of/pretend to be...a person etc. I don't believe the combat engine character development decides that a game is a CRpg, I just think that decides on what kind of cRpg it is, some are stat heavy and some are story heavy. In all, any game you control someone and develop them through out the game is a cRpg, not just the ones that feature stat heavy engines.

Couldn't have said it better, the combat engine has nothing to do with the fact that a game is a CRPG or not. The most important is if the character/party can interact with the world and shape his own history. The Baldur's gate games (especially #2), with specific side quests for each party member, different ways tho solve some quests and various outcomes in the end, are excellent CRPGs.

What you describe, if removed from a quantitative combat/character progression ruleset, is an adventure game.

Anything else is just an arbitrary redefinition of terms that already have perfectly good definitions.

You should familiarize yourself with games like King's Quest; these were adventure games that are exactly what you describe BG2 as being.

In fact, any game without a quantitative ruleset for combat/char development cannot be considered an RPG by any historical or well accepted definition; or at least they cannot be *more accurately* termed an RPG rather than an Adventure game. Adventure game is simply a better fit.

You seem to not be able to see that the lines have blurred a bit since the days of kings quest(which I have played thanks) How on earth do you not see baldurs gate as an rpg is beyond me....what games in your mind are rpg's? If you go by your definitions every rpg is an adventure game...fallout, fallout2, arcanum etc....

Do let me know what you consider an rpg in the last say 10 years or so.

[Horace2]

I was responding to someone who claimed that RPGs have nothing to do with the combat / quantitative (stats based) character development. I responded with the obvious and irrefutable point that without combat / character development, what you're left with is an adventure game.

The combat (and thus char development) in the Infinity Engine games was such a profound failure, that I consider the compelling aspects of those games to be what's left over: the adventure game aspects, which is why I call them adventure games. It is simply a more accurate description and more fairly characterizes the group of people who will respond positively to the games.

Real RPGs of the past 10 years? Gothics, Fallouts, ToEE, Wizardry 8, Spiderweb games, Arx Fatalis, Diablo, System Shock 1 & 2, Deus Ex, Eschalon...

[sirchet]

Diablo? You didn't really mean Diablo did you?
You were making a fairly good point, until you grouped Diablo with any crpg.

[Horace2]

Diablo? You didn't really mean Diablo did you?
You were making a fairly good point, until you grouped Diablo with any crpg.

Diablo is a distillation of an RPG. Storyless tactical combat / character development.

Just as roguelikes are distillations of RPGs.

There is no other common or widely understood word to describe them.

(Action-RPG to be specific in Diablo's case.)

[PaSquall]

Misconception as to who's belief of what cRpg is? Roleplayng means to take the control of/pretend to be...a person etc. I don't believe the combat engine character development decides that a game is a CRpg, I just think that decides on what kind of cRpg it is, some are stat heavy and some are story heavy. In all, any game you control someone and develop them through out the game is a cRpg, not just the ones that feature stat heavy engines.

Couldn't have said it better, the combat engine has nothing to do with the fact that a game is a CRPG or not. The most important is if the character/party can interact with the world and shape his own history. The Baldur's gate games (especially #2), with specific side quests for each party member, different ways tho solve some quests and various outcomes in the end, are excellent CRPGs.

You should familiarize yourself with games like King's Quest; these were adventure games that are exactly what you describe BG2 as being.

Thank you for your condescending tone, that's just making you look like a troll (but I certainly hope it was unintended, wasn't it ?). Believe it or not I've played "adventure games" and I know what they are (yeah, I'm that old, I had a computer in the eighties). The interaction was very limited, that was basically find this item/bring it to the right people or place/unlock next part and so on. When you were stuck somewhere, you were stuck and you had to cross your fingers to find a walkthrough - not easy in the pre-internet era. 100% railroady, opposite of what a good RPG should be. Frankly, except for a few very well-done ones (Flight of the Amazon queen or Monkey Island come to mind), many of these games sucked and I recall beginning many... but not finishing many.
KQ exactly the same as BG2 (that's what you said) ??? Strange, I don't recall I had a party in KQ, nor that there were several ways to solve some of the quests/riddles, or that I could freely explore the world... I'll admit I haven't played the lasts of the series, I had far better games to play when they appeared.

In fact, any game without a quantitative ruleset for combat/char development cannot be considered an RPG by any historical or well accepted definition;.

Yes it can.
The "gain experience points/level up/gain combat powers, magic items", the "quantitative ruleset for character development" as you call it, was introduced in the tabletop Dungeons and dragons game (1974). Since it was the first and it had a tremendous success, the formula was cloned by many other tabletop RPGs, BUT there definitely are RPGs where you don't gain experience points, where you don't level up, and there are even some where you almost never fight (i.e Call of Ctulhu). Since then ,most of the CRPGs have used these concepts, and sometimes the exact Dungeons and Dragons ruleset, but that doesn't mean it's the only way to do it. Sure, it's far easier and faster to make a CRPG with fights every 10 seconds instead of a good non-linear storyline with many NPC interactions. That's why we see very few "real" CRPGs now, and far more "action" RPGs.

I'll repeat again : The most important for me in a RPG is if the character/party can interact with the world/NPCs and shape his own history, with few or no railroading. Character development is a plus, but not needed.
You may disagree with this, but it doesn't make your definition more valid or "official" than mine. I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on this.

[Horace2]

you can disagree with 2 + 2 = 4 too.

Sorry for offending you but it's clear you don't have a point.

Nothing about your definition of "rpg" distinguishes it from an adventure game, and your definition has nothing to do with PnP roots of RPGs.

Your example of Call of Cthulu is an obvious stretch which makes no point, since it is a stats based character progression ruleset at its core.

[viandor]

You're totally wrong Horace2. I won't explain why, others have done it. RPG means Role Playing Games. Role-Playing. Level is common in rpg, but the quintessence of rpg is communication. Diablo is not a true rpg. Baldur's gate, arcanum, fallout, neverwinter nights are rpg.

[Josia]

So...

I've never played the ToEE computer game, but I have both played the original modules and run them as a DM. Good old Village of Hommlet. The story doesn't seem particularly groundbreaking now, but what's horribly cliche now wasn't quite as cliche when it first came out or when a newer, not-so-jaded group of players plays it. I certainly enjoyed it.

I've heard the game is quite faithful to the module. Has anyone played both versions, the game and as a straight-up PnP module? If so, how do they compare?

[Horace2]

You're totally wrong Horace2. I won't explain why, others have done it. RPG means Role Playing Games. Role-Playing. Level is common in rpg, but the quintessence of rpg is communication. Diablo is not a true rpg. Baldur's gate, arcanum, fallout, neverwinter nights are rpg.

Your definition does not distinguish 'rpg' from 'adventure game'.

I guess to you, text-only Infocom games were RPGs, right?

See how your definition fails to distinguish between games in any meaningful way?

[Horace2]

So...

I've never played the ToEE computer game, but I have both played the original modules and run them as a DM. Good old Village of Hommlet. The story doesn't seem particularly groundbreaking now, but what's horribly cliche now wasn't quite as cliche when it first came out or when a newer, not-so-jaded group of players plays it. I certainly enjoyed it.

I've heard the game is quite faithful to the module. Has anyone played both versions, the game and as a straight-up PnP module? If so, how do they compare?

The Planescape factor explains why so many players held up their noses to the story in ToEE. When one expects an adventure game, only an adventure game will do.

Yes, I believe that it is very faithful to the module.