Temple of Elemental Evil - the best RPG I almost didn't play

[realmzmaster]

Horace2,

I have played all the Infinity Engine games and TOEE. I consider them all to be cRPGs. I have played a host of text-based adventure games (Infocom), Scott Adams, Level 9), adventure games (King Quest) and lots of cRPGs. IMHO, I do not see the Infinity Engine games as adventure games. YMMV. I want to know what is your definition of a cRPG? Do you consider the gold box games to be true cRPGs? Is a true cRPG just a game with tactical combat and character development with no plot, or story? What about Pool of Radiance: Ruins of Myth Drannor which came before TOEE? I will ask the entire group, What is your definition of cRPG?

[PaSquall]

Nothing about your definition of "rpg" distinguishes it from an adventure game, and your definition has nothing to do with PnP roots of RPGs.

Your example of Call of Cthulu is an obvious stretch which makes no point, since it is a stats based character progression ruleset at its core.

At this point, it's clear you have no clue of what you're talking about. Bye bye , I have no more time to waste with you.

[Grue]

I will ask the entire group, What is your definition of cRPG?

My take on this, from several months ago...

"A Computer RPG is a game where you control a character or characters, that have values defining their in-game abilities (both innate and learned, usually called attributes and skills, respectively), which can be improved in the course of the game (by experience and/or training). Also, a CRPG has multiple different quests/missions for your character(s) to accomplish, that take place in a persistent game world, which you are (more or less) free to explore."

The rest of my ramblings can be found here -> http://www.basiliskgames.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=394

[Horace2]

Horace2,

I have played all the Infinity Engine games and TOEE. I consider them all to be cRPGs. I have played a host of text-based adventure games (Infocom), Scott Adams, Level 9), adventure games (King Quest) and lots of cRPGs. IMHO, I do not see the Infinity Engine games as adventure games. YMMV. I want to know what is your definition of a cRPG? Do you consider the gold box games to be true cRPGs? Is a true cRPG just a game with tactical combat and character development with no plot, or story? What about Pool of Radiance: Ruins of Myth Drannor which came before TOEE? I will ask the entire group, What is your definition of cRPG?

Sure. This'll just be a rehash of what I've said before but I'll try to make it short.

A cRPG is an adventure game with an added element of quantitative (stats-based) character definition and development.

The reason I call the infinity engine games adventure games is because it makes a rhetorical point that the only compelling aspect of those games were their adventure game aspects. People tolerated the combat in those games at best. The combat/development was never amongst the list of "pros" of the games in any review or discussion I saw.

It would be nice if anybody else in this thread was able to propose a definition for cRPG that distinguished it from adventure game. [edit: Grue's definition is essentially the same as mine, though instead of saying 'adventure game' he provides a collection of things that adventure games usually contain.)]

But I suspect that my definition is really the only possible one, broadly speaking, which does actually make that distinction.

It also has the advantage of being based in historical fact.

I'm not sure what PaSquall et al think core rule books of PnP RPGs are composed of if not painstakingly detailed rulesets pertaining almost entirely to quantitative character definition and development, along with various ways in which those quantities (stats) are used.

[BasiliskWrangler]

People, people...where's the love?

If someone wants to start a new topic in General Discussion about "How do you define a RPG?" please do, but this topic is supposed to be on TOEE. I don't comment on discussions often, but beating each other up over personal RPG preferences is pointless.

[realmzmaster]

You are right! BW, Point taken!

I for one liked the combat and stat system in the Infinity Engine! But that is my personal preference! YMMV.

I will now move on!

[ThwockSplort]

It's this game TOEE! It drives men to madness!

[Horace2]

ToEE has a great ruleset, D&D, faithfully reproduced in detail, including the most important detail, having turn based combat just like the PnP version. That makes it one heck of a fine cRPG.

[screeg]

It's this game TOEE! It drives men to madness!

What better recommendation?

[Shroud]

The combat system for ToEE is by far my favorite. The storyline was lacking and it was bug-infested (to the point where many could not even launch the game). With the Co8 patches, though, it's very playable and a great game. I actually played NWN 1 & 2 after I had played ToEE. The combat was so simple and easy I got bored with the original NWN and stopped playing it. I tried the Underdark expansion though and it was worth my time, since the story was great and being high level made the combat a little less boring (although still ridiculously easy). NWN 2 was a little better, but it still had the same combat system. At least they expanded on the party size a bit.

I also thought ToEE's engine and combat system merged with NWN's storyline would make for the ultimate RPG. I even wanted to write and make my own scenarios/mods, but I dislike the NWN engine too much to put the effort into it. ToEE's engine is perfect but sadly they never released it to the public to play with, even though they'll likely never use it again. It's a shame.