Making A Game.

[Rune_74]

Hey guys,

Lately I've been thinking of starting a group to make a game. What I had in mind was a game a long the lines of dungeon master/lands of lore/bards tale/wizardry. The problem is I have an extensive background with rpg and I have general idea how I want to lay the game out, however, I have little programming experience. I have some knowledge of C++ but its been years.

I think what I would be looking at is a static space by space movement and 90 degree turns, just to keep things simple.

So my questions for you guys and especailly you thom...are:

1) Would it be hard to get a coder out there?
2) What about artists?
3) Anyone interested in a game like this?

Eschalon underworld anyone? joking, but that could be a thought.

Thanks for any info guys,

Dave

[BasiliskWrangler]

Dave:

There are a lot of resources out there for finding coders and artists- check out any major indie game development website and you can find a ton of people looking to help on a project. The problem is coming up with the capital needed to pay people for their work over the 2-3 years it will take to make a decent game. Some people may be willing to work for free until the game is finished in order to have a cut of the profits (I think this is how Vince is handling the AoD crew).

Or, maybe you are looking for a team who is interested in making a free fan-supported game (which is possible, but this will be much harder to keep people focused and on-track when there is no money to be made). If this is your desire, you may be able to round up some Oblivion or NWN modders and you can use one of those games to make a "total conversion".

If you manage get a crew together and want to make an Eschalon-related game, or simply any RPG in an "old-school" style, we can privately discuss how Basilisk Games can help bring this game to market. We have actually been talking with another developer about the possibility of launching a future non-Eschalon RPG under the Basilisk Games label, so it is likely that we will at some point "publish" games that have been developed by other teams using our resources.

[Rune_74]

Thanks Thom,

Yeah like I said its just preliminary right now. I have some ideas about characters and actual layout and how it will play. But at the moment I'm sort of just looking at the realistic side of things, there is not much a chance of me funding development for a couple years so most likely it would be either a make a share when completed or a free ware project.

I could very easily see a eye of the beholder style game in the eschalon universe, it could really open up some new areas.

I don't mean to impede or hamper anything you have planned though, I just really feel like I could throw together a good system for skills etc and hopefully once the engine is up and running be able to map easily.

I don't know how many of you have seen entriom oddessey(ds game I think I got the name right.) anyways it lets you map the game as you go, adding your own notes etc. I would love to get an engine up where levels could be created in the same way, so realistically you could map out a level in an hour or so. Hopefully encorporating that with the game when it is released allowing others to add to the game as well. However how realistic that will be remains to be seen.

[BasiliskWrangler]

Well, it's no secret that we've had a prototype EotB / Dungeon Master engine here in the studio for about 2 years now, which will be the basis for our next game. There is certainly the possibility of licensing the engine out when it is finished, but that is a ways off. We will probably move forward on development of this game engine (and announce our first non-Eschalon game) shortly after Book II is finished.

[getter77]

http://uaf.sourceforge.net/index.html There's also something like this.

I too have some game machinations in mind, and not the incredibly bizarre "project" that Basilisk Wrangler already knows about from a little while back as I've been swamped in personal issues. Likely quite different than this, but then again, I may be able to help with this somewhere a ways down the line providing I can get myself better situated in this area.

[Rune_74]

That does look pretty awesome....is there limitations for what you could do for classes and skill system?

That is basically what I would be looking at for creating levels. Very interesting. Good find.

[getter77]

Happy to help. All I can say for certain is that it is still chugging along development wise so you'd probably be best served to hunt around there for a FAQ or their forums and whatnot to get down to the current nitty gritty.

[Getharn]

I'd be potentially interested in contributing to such a project.

I've been trying to get down and sketch out some ideas for an iPhone-based RPG for a little while now, but my main hinderances are lack of experience writing graphics engines (which I feel I could overcome with a little work - it's purely that I haven't had a reason to muck around with that sort of thing in the past), and an inability to produce graphics and sound (which is a bit more of a stumbling block). I had some thoughts about a Bard's Tale style game, which could afford to be very low graphics and primarily text-based combat, mainly to test the water and see how the project goes. However, I find it hard to build up enough momentum to keep going working on my own.

My background is primarily coding, so I'd be happy to work on engine stuff - it'd be a good excuse to finally pick up some OpenGL or whatever. I think the tricky bit will be finding people for graphics (textures / tiles / icons, etc.) and sound, though, but maybe I'm pessimistic.

I haven't had chance to look at that engine linked earlier, but it looks interesting - remarkably similar to the style of game I was contemplating for the iPhone, in fact!

I'd always thought the best way of writing something like this would be a generic engine which implemented the core game mechanics, as well as rendering and sound, and then have that able to load "modules" which contain a set of textures and/or sprites (as appropriate to the game type), as well as music and sound resources, and level data. It wouldn't be hard to embed, say, a Lua interpreter in the engine so that each module could define arbitrary actions to be carried out to implement things like DM text, traps, teleporters, etc. in a flexible way.

The nice thing about making such a general system would be that a diverse group could cooperate developing it, but still be able to release their own individual games as they liked, by releasing their own modules.

[Rune_74]

Cool:)

I have been doing some more thinking, and I came to the conclusion a module system of game design would really rock. You make the main game and then release modules of areas or adventures that would work with the main game, expanding as the user feels fit, not requiring them to have all modules or ones they don't want.

I guess this would sort of be like a gurps system. Not only would you be able to have a dungeon crawler but also a space game, modern setting etc....or perhaps a dungeon setting with potential to take it in different directions depending on the module you want to follow?

I'm throwing this out there to see what sticks to the wall.

Dave

[getter77]

http://www.runesword.com/rs2.html

Do as I do and froth for this 2.6 release before jumping in and making a forum post asking what all I've missed between the first and second game from issing it all these years, how the progression has gone since then, and what's the deal with said long vanished manual and 90 min video. Dungeon Delvers sounds awesome too.

It occurs to me I've really managed to pick up a strange assortment of links these past several weeks.

[Getharn]

I guess this would sort of be like a gurps system. Not only would you be able to have a dungeon crawler but also a space game, modern setting etc....or perhaps a dungeon setting with potential to take it in different directions depending on the module you want to follow?

It's worth being fairly exacting about how you describe this sort of thing, because I can think of at least three levels of abstraction at which things could be "modularised".

First, you could imagine a module just constributing maps, items and perhaps some specific code for actions to the game, and the engine would lay down all the core rules and contain sets of tiles (or other types of graphics) from which modules could choose for their maps. This is quite close the NWN concept of a module.

Second, you could imagine the engine just providing the ability to render maps of tiles, or something similar, but where the module itself provides all the graphics and audio resources. The engine would probably have UI graphics (inventory screens, etc.), and provides the core ruleset.

Thirdly, you could abstract even the rules out to the module to a certain extent, so that the module can customise the way combat mechanics work and potentially add new game modes. This might be required for implementing very different worlds - for example, a space game might involve tactical space combat, or something similar.

My personal feeling is that the second level of abstraction is the right one to aim for. If you allow modules to customise rulesets too much (aside from perhaps a few key parameters) then writing the engine becomes a bit of a nightmare. Well, in fact, it's no longer really an engine, but instead just a library of functionality, and the module becomes your main application. I'm not saying it wouldn't be cool, but you have to remain pragmatic about these things!

I think the thing to do would be to write / find an engine which allows solid fantasy-style RPGs to be written, and worry about expanding it in different directions later. It's very easy to get stuck in analysis paralysis with these sorts of projects, especially if it's not financially motivated, so I think it pays to keep the initial scope limited.

Of course, I tend to look at things first and foremost as a software project, and then retro-fit a ruleset that can be realistically implemented, whereas I'm thinking you're probably coming at this from the other end, by designing an RPG system you like and then building a game around that?

[Getharn]

Random comment - this seems as good a place for it as any, I suppose...

Is anybody aware of a "traditional" RPG where hit points doesn't differ between classes? Or preferably by level either? I realise that hit points are an abstraction that represents an amalgam of various factors, but I've always wondered what a system would be like where you don't actually get more "healthy", you just improve your combat skills and armour such that you end up taking less damage (of course there're other types of damage to consider as well).

So, a warrior could focus on becoming almost invulnerable in melee, but a simple trap or spell could lay them low if they haven't put the effort into countering these things.

I'm curious as to how such a system would play, rather than suggesting it would be any better than "traditional" systems.

[Rune_74]

Getharn,

I see what you mean when you worry about how much can be modded etc. I do have a background in programming, just haven't done it in awhile.

So I have done some thinking, what about modability to a degree? Meaning I could take a basic template then modify it by drop down menus that all tie into the experience/penalties as you add or take away things from the class. Technically you could still make different character classes for your game depending on how you mod it, however it would be much more controlled if you get my meaning.

Another thing is, what about having the game be able to make more adventures in a game world I (or we) develop? So all the tiles are there and you just do the dungeon layout you want...you ever play d&d and seen the random generator for dungeons? something like that could be even placed in where it will generate the dungeon. The maker adds key events in certain locations and what the encounter would be. That doesn't seem so difficult....wouldn't an array setting parameters of a grid be able to generally do this? (yes I you would have to do checks to ensure that the map is not a bunch of dead ends....although you could even allow a user to go back and mod the dungeon after generation. Also....why couldn't the editor just be a simple grid system similar to a peice of grap paper where you draw it in 2d then have a window you see what it looks like in 3d. There is no different levels in the dungeon(meaning hieght levels.) so I think that would work.

Also, how hard would it be to make a random dungeon filler? Similar to some of those nethack games....it takes the level of the dungeon you want in an entry, the level of difficulty you are looking for and generates a list depending on any other factors we can think of.

Let me know what you think....I love the input so far....wish to god I could program....

Dave

[Getharn]

So I have done some thinking, what about modability to a degree? Meaning I could take a basic template then modify it by drop down menus that all tie into the experience/penalties as you add or take away things from the class.

It's all a continuous scale, really, and ends up being a trade-off between flexibility and difficulty of implementation and use. So, you're talking there about designing custom classes, but what is a class? The answer depends on the level of abstraction at which you think about the game - I was trying to look at things on a more fundamental level.

If you strip away all the preconceptions, a role-playing game (just about any game, in fact) is basically some sort of world and a set of rules about how the player is permitted to interact with that world. Fundamentally, some code somewhere needs to be written which enforces these rules, and in a modular system there's always going to be a big question about whether this code goes into the game engine, or the modules.

You seem to be thinking about custom character classes, but what if a module wants to add a custom skill? How would it specify the rules associated with that skill? What if it wanted to specify a new character attribute? Or even a new property of objects in the world? Some module designer out there decides they want objects to be flammable, so objects need a new "flammability" property.

Now this sort of thing is really cool if you can get it working, but it gets very hard if you can't make any assumptions about the world and the objects therein.

That might have been what you were thinking anyway, but I just wanted to try and illustrate the level to which you have to consider these things. As you suggest, I think limited flexibility is the way to go, but the million dollar question is where to draw the line. For example, if the core engine defines attributes and skills, and there's no way for a module to add new ones, then the ability to define custom classes becomes quite easy. You just define a group of skills, feats, or whatever other bonuses you want to offer, and you define how they accrue to the character as they level up.

That's not so hard to implement because the way in which the player interacts with the world is defined by the engine - they use a pre-defined set of actions that modules can't override. Sure, the module can change which actions the player has available under various circumstances, but it's quite easy to write rules about that - it's a limited problem. However, a magic item which gives the player a skill that didn't previously exist in the game would be very difficult to implement unless you'd carefully considered the ability to do that when designing the engine itself.

Sorry, that was quite a long essay, and I don't feel I've been very clear - hopefully you've picked up on my meaning, though. Also bear in mind that, while I'm a software engineer, I'm not experienced at writing game engines, so it's possible I'm over- or under-emphasizing the difficulty of certain aspects.

Another thing is, what about having the game be able to make more adventures in a game world I (or we) develop? So all the tiles are there and you just do the dungeon layout you want...

Remember that tile-based engines are only one of the approaches, but personally I think it's a good one - they're easier to work with in lots of ways, and roleplayers aren't generally too bothered about hyper-realistic graphics.

So, again, you have a sliding scale of tradeoffs here. NWN used to have a fixed set of tile collections, and you could build levels with those. There was no potential for modules to include their own tilesets. It was possible to add more tilesets to the engine, but that was a separate issue (and involved a little bit of low-level fiddling, I recall). So, you could take the NWN approach and offer a fixed number of tilesets, or you could allow modules to ship with their own. Or both.

Again, my feeling is some limited amount of flexbility. So, you define a file format which specifies tiles (including graphics, whether tiles are walkable, etc.), and then you can ship some basic sets with the engine, but also allow modules to add their own.

Also, how hard would it be to make a random dungeon filler?

The last time I tried to design one of these I was about 14(!), but I don't remember the code being too hard. Coming up with an algorithm that generated decent dungeons that didn't feel too cookie-cutter, however, was a bit trickier. It's certainly possible, but the way to think about this is an add-on tool which designers can use, I think, rather than as a core part of the game. When considering software problems, you always want to divide and conquer - split the problem into the smallest parts that you can, with well-defined interfaces between them, and then each one becomes a lot more tractable.

Let me know what you think....I love the input so far....wish to god I could program....

Ah, programming's not so hard as long as you're interested enough to stick with it through the frustrations. You just need to be ruthlessly logical and mind-numbingly pedantic. Hm, doesn't make it sound very appealing, does it? Still, I like problem-solving, and coding has that in bucket-loads. Although I think I've been doing a bit too much of it lately... I was speaking to a non-technical friend of mine, who innocently asked how my day had been - I can't remember exactly what I said, but it ended up along the lines of:

"... So yeah, then I finally realised I'd mixed up the 'next' pointers on the LRU and hash table bucket lists! Sheesh, can you imagine? I felt like such an idiot. I mean, how can- hey, are you OK? Your eyes look a little glazed..."

Much as I like coding, I'm looking forward to the holidays...

[Grue]

Is anybody aware of a "traditional" RPG where hit points doesn't differ between classes?

By traditional I assume you mean Pen and Paper RPGs. There are many such rule systems (RuneQuest and GURPS, to name the first two that to mind) and the effect of such systems is that players take combat much more seriously. No longer is it the easy answer (to almost everything), as you could very well be killed by a group of "lowly" goblins if you're reckless/stupid and provoke a fight just for the heck of it, when outnumbered or otherwise disadvantaged. As you don't get more HP as you get more powerful (i.e. more experienced), any weapon (more or less) remains a viable weapon to wield (provided you are skilled in its use), so you don't have to have the Flaming Halberd of Doom +13 to make a dent in someone's skull. In these rule systems it is the combat skills (not exp. levels or somesuch) that are the deciding factor in combat - along with sound tactics, of course. You get better at combat by improving your combat skills (getting good armour and weapons doesn't hurt either) and you survive battles by using your combat skills to not get hit (not by having more and more HP to soak the damage). You can outmaneuver and outfight (is that a word?) less skilled foes, even to the point of being nearly unbeatable (your combat skills being vastly superior to your foes), but you better not get unlucky or make a mistake, as a single solid sword or axe blow might just ruin your day for good. And all your über melee skills don't help you much vs a distant mage firing ranged combat spells at you...

Note that, both of the systems mentioned above have no levels nor character classes, so I'm not sure they're exactly what you're looking for. BUt, IMHO, having no classes or levels is a Very Good Thing(tm).