Also if you zigzag by which I mean walk straight diagonal straight diagonal repeatedly and rapidly (before the enemy's movement animation is completed) you can outrun most anything in the game so while you can easily run circles (somewhat wide) around acid grubs you can still outrun most enemies in a slight zigzag line. Of course you'd still need a decent amount of arrows depending on you're bow skill, and not everyone wants to be running around all day.Kreador Freeaxe wrote:You can shoot the acid grubs from afar by running away a bit. They're slower than you are. It's also fun to group them so they splash each other.Luzur wrote:thanks to the savegame editor i was finally able to beef up my bow skill so i could take out those damn acid grubbs from afar instead of having them splash acid on my expensive armor.
i hope you make the editor workable with Book 2 and 3 if the devs decides to add those pesky grubbs again...
Be honest - do you cheat, and how?
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Re: Be honest - do you cheat, and how?
Re: Be honest - do you cheat, and how?
Lol it's funny how this thread is full of posts turning around the initial topic but didn't cover it. 
About cheating and difficulty setup I feel that Book I suffered a bit of the problem to be tuned by players using cheat too much and players already used to exploit most tricks in the game including many coming from knowing already the game. Lol ok just my feeling.
That said when reading this topic I realized that I probably cheat more than I thought. And it's always cheat around one dice bad luck. Acid destroying stuff, disarm, disease. In all cases it's an isolate random with a very negative effect. I played some Roguelike using this sort of trick but really Book I couldn't be compared to them. It doesn't provide enough random drops to fit their gameplay. Additionally I don't think it's hazard that I saw an important use of this sort of stuff in a game genre where you cannot use the reload trick.
With those sort of events many gamers will use reload and some will find unpleasant to do it even if they have the choice to not do it. At least myself I fit to this category.
About the learning curve and difficulty setup, it's a complicate thing. I definitely get problems with the game beginning. And in fact some forum helps had been important at this point. That said I also agree that modern RPG tend to lower too much the difficulty level.
About make the player do something in a non stressful situation before put him in a situation stressful to do a similar sort of stuff, I'd say that this should not apply to turn base game like Eschalon. But for that could be used for example to progressively learn tricks around secrets. For the fights it could apply but I felt that fights hadn't enough tactical potential. I already explained in detail my point of view about that in the reviews thread.
All of that said, thanks to some helps from forum, my experience with Book I has been quite good despite many little flaws I felt. And I don't see what could stop me to buy and play Book II.
About cheating and difficulty setup I feel that Book I suffered a bit of the problem to be tuned by players using cheat too much and players already used to exploit most tricks in the game including many coming from knowing already the game. Lol ok just my feeling.
That said when reading this topic I realized that I probably cheat more than I thought. And it's always cheat around one dice bad luck. Acid destroying stuff, disarm, disease. In all cases it's an isolate random with a very negative effect. I played some Roguelike using this sort of trick but really Book I couldn't be compared to them. It doesn't provide enough random drops to fit their gameplay. Additionally I don't think it's hazard that I saw an important use of this sort of stuff in a game genre where you cannot use the reload trick.
With those sort of events many gamers will use reload and some will find unpleasant to do it even if they have the choice to not do it. At least myself I fit to this category.
About the learning curve and difficulty setup, it's a complicate thing. I definitely get problems with the game beginning. And in fact some forum helps had been important at this point. That said I also agree that modern RPG tend to lower too much the difficulty level.
About make the player do something in a non stressful situation before put him in a situation stressful to do a similar sort of stuff, I'd say that this should not apply to turn base game like Eschalon. But for that could be used for example to progressively learn tricks around secrets. For the fights it could apply but I felt that fights hadn't enough tactical potential. I already explained in detail my point of view about that in the reviews thread.
All of that said, thanks to some helps from forum, my experience with Book I has been quite good despite many little flaws I felt. And I don't see what could stop me to buy and play Book II.
Re: Be honest - do you cheat, and how?
exactly. after doing 2 rounds allover the beach at the Ossuary i felt it was time for some beef-up. and i had played the game normally up til then with no diagonal running or other stuff but drawing my sword and charge, til i met those little buggers, who destroyed both my breastplate and helm.Of course you'd still need a decent amount of arrows depending on you're bow skill, and not everyone wants to be running around all day.
and i have no qualms over cheating, since i play to see the story.
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Collector of CRPG's and Commodore computers.
Collector of CRPG's and Commodore computers.
Re: Be honest - do you cheat, and how?
I haven't cheated yet but I'm coming extremely close. I thought that I was just getting unlucky or that the random number generator was just having a run of good rolls.
I'm about 5 hours in to the game and have just killed the Wasp Queen and gone back to Lilith. So this 'run' of good rolls for the NPCs has been going from the start. Creatures are damaging me consistently 40% more often than what's listed as their toHitChance and are hitting consistently 60% more often. My chance to hit is sitting just under 10% below what is listed so that was close enough for me.
My tactic is to generally put the torch away, cast Cat's Eyes, equip a shield (I use Heavy Armour) and then get amongst it. This only gives me a small hit chance reduction but a big one to the critters, that's if the listed figures are to be believed.
Take the wasps for instance. When it's dark they supposedly only have about a 34% hit chance yet they've hit just on 90% of the time and damaged just over 70% of the time. This means I get torn to shreds and have to rely heavily on Divine Heal and Potions, reloads and lots of resting. At the start it was much worse because I had no healing nor potions, I mean this is the first RPG I've ever encountered that has a 'Healer' that starts without any healing.
If you want a super tough encounter system then that's fine by me, just don't hide it behind false figures that aren't even remotely accurate. Even the old gold box AD&D games, Wizardry and Ultima I to V are easier than this.
I'm about 5 hours in to the game and have just killed the Wasp Queen and gone back to Lilith. So this 'run' of good rolls for the NPCs has been going from the start. Creatures are damaging me consistently 40% more often than what's listed as their toHitChance and are hitting consistently 60% more often. My chance to hit is sitting just under 10% below what is listed so that was close enough for me.
My tactic is to generally put the torch away, cast Cat's Eyes, equip a shield (I use Heavy Armour) and then get amongst it. This only gives me a small hit chance reduction but a big one to the critters, that's if the listed figures are to be believed.
Take the wasps for instance. When it's dark they supposedly only have about a 34% hit chance yet they've hit just on 90% of the time and damaged just over 70% of the time. This means I get torn to shreds and have to rely heavily on Divine Heal and Potions, reloads and lots of resting. At the start it was much worse because I had no healing nor potions, I mean this is the first RPG I've ever encountered that has a 'Healer' that starts without any healing.
If you want a super tough encounter system then that's fine by me, just don't hide it behind false figures that aren't even remotely accurate. Even the old gold box AD&D games, Wizardry and Ultima I to V are easier than this.
Re: Be honest - do you cheat, and how?
I save/reload when lock picking, but that's it. If it's a glitch or built into the game, you better believe I will use it; it's about using what you have to survive, after all. But I won't go so far as to download any trainers or outside help, kind of ruins it for me. I find if you have hide in shadows, bow, lock pick, and at the same time wear heavy armor (they have to be able to hear you if you are to kite them around) the game gives you an easy enough time.
All in all, I'm a pretty scary character on there. I mean, a rogue/marksman that can also break your neck and has plate armor? Sometimes I can't sleep at night
All in all, I'm a pretty scary character on there. I mean, a rogue/marksman that can also break your neck and has plate armor? Sometimes I can't sleep at night
Re: Be honest - do you cheat, and how?
OK, al lot depends on what you call cheating. If something is built into the game structure, say the portal spell, then I don't consider it cheating to use it creatively to portal back to town for a quick rest in the middle of a large battle. I consider that to be part of the reality of the game world, and use things like that freely.
The only time I have used save and restore to "treasure farm" a chest was when I opened a chest, found a wonderful treasure, and then the game crashed (the only time it has done that.) When I went back and opened the chest again, it was empty, so I felt justified in chest farming a few times to get something at least close to what I originally found.
My biggest cheat is that once I learn the recipe for an alchemy potion, if I get killed and start over, I keep the recipe, instead of playing honest and waiting until I find the recipe again before I use it.
The only time I have used save and restore to "treasure farm" a chest was when I opened a chest, found a wonderful treasure, and then the game crashed (the only time it has done that.) When I went back and opened the chest again, it was empty, so I felt justified in chest farming a few times to get something at least close to what I originally found.
My biggest cheat is that once I learn the recipe for an alchemy potion, if I get killed and start over, I keep the recipe, instead of playing honest and waiting until I find the recipe again before I use it.
Re: Be honest - do you cheat, and how?
I just have to comment the original post, because what ShadowDragon advocates is one of the things I feel take the fun out of most modern games.
So please, since you're not afraid to cheat, don't ask developers for easy games, because some people like a challenge and find non-challenging games boring and void of reason. I know you didn't really ask for easy games here, but you gave that impression.
As for the topic: No, I didn't cheat once in Eschalon on my first playthrough. Not even save-loading chests.
I strongly disagree. Without actual risk, there is by definition no need to make use of whatever tactics the game mechanics provide, which in my opinion almost completely kills the purpose of the game. There should be a real risk, and the game mechanics should allow the player to win if he knows the game well enough, whether it's an action game - where dexterity is (or should be) an important skill - or an RPG.ShadowDragon8685 wrote: It is my experience, and opinion, that in a good game, the player should never be likely to experience defeat if they are giving an honest attempt at it. The illusion of risk should be the benchmark the game shoots for, not actual risk.
I can't think of any computer or video game to which your scenario applies. If I do everything "right" in Eschalon, I complete the game without having to risk dying even once, probably (in theory, at least). Some gambling is OK, by the way. The chance factor adds the extra excitement in a battle where you're pushing your luck.ShadowDragon8685 wrote: Think about it this way; if you have a game, and you've done everything 'right', and you still have a chance greater than two thirds of failure in the task, then what you're doing is not called playing, it's called gambling.
So please, since you're not afraid to cheat, don't ask developers for easy games, because some people like a challenge and find non-challenging games boring and void of reason. I know you didn't really ask for easy games here, but you gave that impression.
As for the topic: No, I didn't cheat once in Eschalon on my first playthrough. Not even save-loading chests.
Re: Be honest - do you cheat, and how?
oblivion scales TERRIBLY, oblivion skills each level individually, when you level your MAIN skills you get to be higher level and now all the enemies get stronger... so what happens if you chose persuasion as a prime skill? you go around in the city accumulating wealth and skill and levels, and get out and slaughtered by much more powerful enemies... and what if you chose to play a "wizard" and instead picked a sword? in a few minutes you catch up to a level 1 warrion, and then continue to level, slightly slower, but still up to the same skill level cap of 100... all without making your enemies any stronger!...BasiliskWrangler wrote:I have to agree with Elveron in one regard: we don't scale the game to anyone's skill level (like Oblivion does). This makes the game overly challenging to some, overly easy to others.
The biggest problem now is that we are difficulty adjusting Book II, but with so many people finishing Book I proclaiming "I kicked the game's ass @ level 14 with no problem!" but without mentioning how much they cheated, well that is just skewing Book II to be much more difficult with fewer exploits to rely on.
A powerful oblivion character is as LOW a level as possible, which is achived by choosing useless skills as your "prime" skills and never leveing them up.... OR never EVER sleeping... since you only level when you sleep...
I -HATE- with a passion any game that has "level dependent spawns"... it takes out ANY point or purpose of character building... why bother questing to make your character stronger, the enemies will just spawn at the same level as you! it is really one big epic fail.
Re: Be honest - do you cheat, and how?
Ok...I finished the game.
How did I cheat?
1.Chest scumming.(leaving the game to its own devices produces mediocre garbage,Hand placed loot and gold bags would help the game a lot)
2.Battle scumming.(reloads for negative effects and whenever monster damage was more than half of what I dealt in that round)
3.Used the forum to get past a couple puzzles and one wtf moment(the lever in the goblin citadel,it toggles two doors..at 430 am...it messed with my head)
4. I vendor scummed 1 time.For silk.
After level 9 battle scumming stopped.Chest scumming was way to hard a habit to break.GREED factor+1
How did I cheat?
1.Chest scumming.(leaving the game to its own devices produces mediocre garbage,Hand placed loot and gold bags would help the game a lot)
2.Battle scumming.(reloads for negative effects and whenever monster damage was more than half of what I dealt in that round)
3.Used the forum to get past a couple puzzles and one wtf moment(the lever in the goblin citadel,it toggles two doors..at 430 am...it messed with my head)
4. I vendor scummed 1 time.For silk.
After level 9 battle scumming stopped.Chest scumming was way to hard a habit to break.GREED factor+1
Re: Be honest - do you cheat, and how?
for save/load, I found myself doing this continuously --- I didn't consider it cheating until reading this thread.
The problem is I would cast 6 fire bolts and be out of mana. Running ALL the way out of a dungeon to find a safe place to camp so I can run ALL the way back in and kill 2 more mobs IS NOT FUN. save/load all the way, camp in the dungeon. The major problem here is in the true waste of time forced upon me walking back and forth. I put up with it for the first 6-8 hours of the game, but as soon as I discovered the save/load technique there was no reason to go back.
I hope there is a way to have a game mechanic where I can continue to dungeon crawl without so much downtime.
Also, once I got portal spell it was GG time. I placed a portal in a safe forest area and another one at the farthest spot in the dungeon I was. I always kept 10 mana to port out. Too easy.
No complaints without suggestions:
1) save/load should only be done at specific locations in town. Click on a save stone or something. there, fixes that.
2) Portal should be more like 80 mana, requiring significant resources and maybe taking several turns to warp. Similar to Ultima Online ( as in there is time to cast a spell where you can get punked ).
The problem is I would cast 6 fire bolts and be out of mana. Running ALL the way out of a dungeon to find a safe place to camp so I can run ALL the way back in and kill 2 more mobs IS NOT FUN. save/load all the way, camp in the dungeon. The major problem here is in the true waste of time forced upon me walking back and forth. I put up with it for the first 6-8 hours of the game, but as soon as I discovered the save/load technique there was no reason to go back.
I hope there is a way to have a game mechanic where I can continue to dungeon crawl without so much downtime.
Also, once I got portal spell it was GG time. I placed a portal in a safe forest area and another one at the farthest spot in the dungeon I was. I always kept 10 mana to port out. Too easy.
No complaints without suggestions:
1) save/load should only be done at specific locations in town. Click on a save stone or something. there, fixes that.
2) Portal should be more like 80 mana, requiring significant resources and maybe taking several turns to warp. Similar to Ultima Online ( as in there is time to cast a spell where you can get punked ).
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Re: Be honest - do you cheat, and how?
Is it more dangerous to camp inside dungeons than outside of them? I thought random encounter chance didn't change in and out of dungeons, but I guess I never found out for sure.
Basically all I ever did in terms of camping is make sure I'm far enough away from enemies so the game would let me camp. A little bit beyond the enemies just offscreen.
It's a bit gloomy pitching your tent in the dark dank dungeon without the sun to let you know when it's morning, but I don't remember having to walk outside all the time.
Basically all I ever did in terms of camping is make sure I'm far enough away from enemies so the game would let me camp. A little bit beyond the enemies just offscreen.
It's a bit gloomy pitching your tent in the dark dank dungeon without the sun to let you know when it's morning, but I don't remember having to walk outside all the time.
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Dragonlady
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Re: Be honest - do you cheat, and how?
Unclever title wrote:Is it more dangerous to camp inside dungeons than outside of them? I thought random encounter chance didn't change in and out of dungeons, but I guess I never found out for sure.
Basically all I ever did in terms of camping is make sure I'm far enough away from enemies so the game would let me camp. A little bit beyond the enemies just offscreen.
It's a bit gloomy pitching your tent in the dark dank dungeon without the sun to let you know when it's morning, but I don't remember having to walk outside all the time.
As I said in a previous post a few minutes ago, just watch your hp/mana points on the screen as they go up. That way you know roughly how much time has past underground. It may take longer to recover below than above but it is do-able.
It does mean saving and reloading and some here are objecting to that as it is cheating. I don't. If I had to go all the way back up to recover all the time, I'd stop playing the game. Too annoying.
Sometimes the dragon wins...
Help save the earth. It's the only planet with CHOCOLATE!
Help save the earth. It's the only planet with CHOCOLATE!
Re: Be honest - do you cheat, and how?
My english is bad.
So ... I confess I find some cheat program, named like Cheat Engine? So, what I do is ... gives to me 9999999 golds, life, exp, etc ... but this sucks!
I delete this game and start again without cheats, cuz when you play with cheats in any game, then game start boring.
I play without cheats and I'm so far far away from start.
Book II will be awesome, I can't waiting for. I want play demo soooon as is possible
So ... I confess I find some cheat program, named like Cheat Engine? So, what I do is ... gives to me 9999999 golds, life, exp, etc ... but this sucks!
I delete this game and start again without cheats, cuz when you play with cheats in any game, then game start boring.
I play without cheats and I'm so far far away from start.
Book II will be awesome, I can't waiting for.
I want play demo soooon as is possible -
Unclever title
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Re: Be honest - do you cheat, and how?
I think most of us can agree to that.BorutMaja wrote:I delete this game and start again without cheats, cuz when you play with cheats in any game, then game start boring.
I play without cheats and I'm so far far away from start.
Book II will be awesome, I can't waiting for.
Re: Be honest - do you cheat, and how?
I cheated by:
a) reading faq when stuck
b) posting questions on the board when stuck
c) loading saved games when I died (but I didn't have a save game to recover my divine ore sword when it went kaboom so I wasn't able to recover it).
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for me gold was a bit a problem more than once a store had a really great item but i was too poor to afford it. The only time I had lots of gold was at the very end but then I couldn't spend it because the game was over ....
a) reading faq when stuck
b) posting questions on the board when stuck
c) loading saved games when I died (but I didn't have a save game to recover my divine ore sword when it went kaboom so I wasn't able to recover it).
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for me gold was a bit a problem more than once a store had a really great item but i was too poor to afford it. The only time I had lots of gold was at the very end but then I couldn't spend it because the game was over ....