A question about Hit Points

[BasiliskWrangler]

This issue was brought up this weekend during the latest round of testing…

Right now, the way Eschalon handles Hit Points is that the amount you have is directly related to your Endurance. When you level up, you don't automatically receive more Hit Points like in traditional RPGs, but you do get a few more Attribute points to distribute to show that your character improved his overall abilities. During the leveling process, if you choose to put another point or two into Endurance, your maximum Hit Point will increase. If not, your Hit Points stay the same. Mana Points in Eschalon work the same way, i.e. directly linked to an Attribute.

One of the testers felt this wasn’t true to the spirit of Old School role-playing where you automatically get more Hit Points when you level. Thoughts or opinions, anyone?

[Saxon1974]

I would prefer to get automatic hitpoints when gaining a level. I think Endurance should be your stamina or how tired your character is. I like when the system gives you points to allocate to things like skills or strength\intelligence etc when leveling up....but not hit points.

Maybe you could use the Endurance stat to determine how many hit points a character gets when leveling up? This way the player could use an advancement point on endurance which means when he levels up he gets more hitpoints?

Just my 2 cents.

[Gallifrey]

I too think hit points should be gained at the level up point. Presumably as you advance through the game, you will be encountering tougher opponents that can do you more damage, and it would not be good to find yourself suddenly lacking the fortitude to get past a certain opponent because you chose to take a charismatic or dextrous path of development. Having advances of hit points tied only to the Endurance stat largely railroads players into making tough PCs rather than anything else, if they wish to survive.
Now, if a player consistantly has different options to deal with enemies, such as by sneaking past them or using diplomacy or bluffing, then perhaps hit points being purely stat-derived is fine, since one's other choices in character development offer solutions to dealing with obstacles. But I don't get the impression that such a system is in place.

One of the greatest dangers of some skill-based (as opposed to class-based) RPGs is that a player finds themselves with a disastrously flawed build and must resort to restarting or somehow editing their game, to have a character that can actually accomplish the goals of the game. At least if you have regularly increasing hit points, the character is given some manner of durability to face the dangers ahead.

Could hit points be a base amount per level, modified by the Endurance stat, or perhaps hit points could be the Endurance stat, cumulative with each level (so if your Endurance is 8 you get 8 hit points per level)?

[MarionDeputy]

I agree with Sax & Galli....

[screeg]

You didn't really address Gallifrey's point about tougher opponents. I presume, in your original model, the PC receives less and less damage as he progresses? Or gets hit less and less often?

It does sound more awkward than the traditional method of awarding more hp as you go.

[Sanctus]

well I stik with Bas... i like the ideea of having to chose wether to increase u'r mane by 10 point or to use 2 of them on health...
Though its not really realistic.... I'd say that a few hp would automaticaly gained when lvling

[Gallifrey]

It comes down to what the balance of the game is, ultimately. You don't want to have a PC with hit points so high that it makes them virtually indestructible, but you also don't want to have the PC getting killed in every encounter because of low Endurance in favour of another statistic.

[Dragonlady]

I would prefer to get automatic hitpoints when gaining a level. I think Endurance should be your stamina or how tired your character is. I like when the system gives you points to allocate to things like skills or strength\intelligence etc when leveling up....but not hit points.

Maybe you could use the Endurance stat to determine how many hit points a character gets when leveling up? This way the player could use an advancement point on endurance which means when he levels up he gets more hitpoints?

Just my 2 cents.

Well said Saxon1974. I agree. I hate having built up a character with say high dexterity only to find later in the game I should have gone with endurance or wisdom to get through a certain section of the game. Having to start all over or hope I had a saved game far enough back to start from that point is discouraging. Not to mention hard on my wrists (I get Carpal Tunnel pain when I have to do a lot of clicking over a long period of time). Having to start over means I stop playing some games completly.

[Gallifrey]

Having to start over means I stop playing some games completly.

Same here, and in an RPG that is very tedious. I play an RPG to explore a story, not to play a numbers game. So when I have to restart for whatever reason, it's nothing short of a chore as I'm revisiting all the same things, it's like watching a movie all over again right after watching it once.

Another thing related to this, when you have an RPG that gives a player many options in how they develop a character, it's good to reward them for their decisions during the game, rather than showing them what they could have had.

These two things are the reason I've never finished Arcanum. Great concept, great story, wonderful setting, lots of variety. But while playing the game, I can never help but think "what if I had chosen this build instead?" when coming across an area, and rarely given a "wow, I'm glad I chose this" feeling. It's always "I should have done this instead".

[dteowner]

Same here, and in an RPG that is very tedious. I play an RPG to explore a story, not to play a numbers game. So when I have to restart for whatever reason, it's nothing short of a chore as I'm revisiting all the same things, it's like watching a movie all over again right after watching it once.

This might explain why we've had some differences of opinion in the past. Any game worth it's salt will have me restarting at least half a dozen times to compensate for lessons learned. I've heard it called "spreadsheet RPG", and that sounds good to me. I would certainly differentiate that from powergaming, although some folks have a hard time understanding the difference.

Re the original question: Seems that hit points is a rather basic and inseperable measure of character growth. As has been mentioned earlier, it would be pretty tricky to balance stronger monsters with players that don't get stronger.

[focus]

Just to add my two cents I would too prefer a number of hit-points per level, but the amount linked to an attribute. I have, like other posters, found some games seem to favour different types of characters and if you have made the wrong choices earlier in the game then you have a difficult time.

However, if the game is well balanced so that there are many ways to accomplish something then this may negate this point.

[Saxon1974]

Just curious, has the decision on this topic been made yet?

[BasiliskWrangler]

We've went old school...you automatically gain mana points and hit points at each level. However, the amount of HP and MP you gain is linked to Endurance and Perception respectively. This way fighters and mages naturally tend to progress like they should, i.e. fighters eventually develop deep HP reserves and mages develop deep MP reserves.

[Gallifrey]

So are you working with a system of statistic modifiers, sort of the way D&D 3rd edition does? For example a stat of 10 gives a, say, +3 modifier to the skills and/or abilities which that stat controls?

[BasiliskWrangler]

Correct. Here's the actual formula, which may or may not undergo further tweaking after our next major test-

Let's start with this 1st level Fighter-type character who is advancing to level 2:
Strength [17]
Dexterity [14]
Endurance [15]
Speed [12]
Intelligence [11]
Wisdom [12]
Perception [8]
Concentration [9]

For Hit Points, the primary attribute is Endurance and the secondary attribute is Strength. Starting at level 10, he'll get +2 HPs for every 5 levels of Endurance, and +1 HP for every 10 levels of Strength.

He'll also gain some mana even though he might not even use it. Perception is the primary attribute there, but since it is below 10 he gets no bonus at all from that attribute. However, his secondary mana attribute (Intelligence) is above 10 so he'll get +1 mana point for that.

So, this level, he'll get +5 Hit Points, (4 from Endurance, 1 from Strength) and +1 Mana Point (1 from Intelligence). He also gets to distribute an additional 3 attribute points per level. So by level 3, if he puts all his attribute points into Endurance and Strength, he could be earning +8 Hit Points per level. Or, he can stop developing his physical attributes and put the points into Perception and Intelligence, and begin making significant gains in Mana Points every level.