I haven't actually run the slide-rule over it, but it is my impression that some stats / skills are not having much impact.
Cartography, alchemy, magic skills - pretty obvious (you can do things you couldn't before), ditto the first level of armor, weapon, etc (the penalty goes away).
However adding 3 points to 'mercantile', or <armor>/<weapon> (after the first one>, or picklock, or skulduggery, or whatever seems to have minimal
impact on price, to hit, %chance of succeeding.
Or am I confused? I mean leveling up is not something that happens a whole lot, and doing it just to get 3GP off a 100GP price seems a bit of a let down.
'Maxing out' and scaling in general
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BasiliskWrangler
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All skills improve as more points are added. For balance reasons, some skills take more points before you see a change.
Mercantile is a good example. In it's original form, our testers were able to boost it to about 12 early on and they made tons of gold by buying low and selling high. It was a huge exploit. So that skill was adjusted to not be so powerful. You can still accomplish that level with Mercantile if you want, but you must have a mercantile in high 20's/30's to see that kind of effect.
Certainly any points added to a weapon skill should see your ToHit increase. With armor, your Damage Reduction improves. Lockpicking you'll see locks slowly become easier to pick.
It is a slow progression and it does take dedication. People who have many skills see very slow gains because they have to spread their points out.
Mercantile is a good example. In it's original form, our testers were able to boost it to about 12 early on and they made tons of gold by buying low and selling high. It was a huge exploit. So that skill was adjusted to not be so powerful. You can still accomplish that level with Mercantile if you want, but you must have a mercantile in high 20's/30's to see that kind of effect.
Certainly any points added to a weapon skill should see your ToHit increase. With armor, your Damage Reduction improves. Lockpicking you'll see locks slowly become easier to pick.
It is a slow progression and it does take dedication. People who have many skills see very slow gains because they have to spread their points out.
So what sort of level of e.g. lockpick, or swords do you think is required to get to 'expert' (i..e 90%+ chance of picking any lock, or hitting a tough opponent)?
Maybe it is non-linear, but it looks to me like I'd need to be a level20 character who'd put all 60 points into 'lockpick' to get there??
Mercantile SHOULD BE (IMO) non-linear - e.g. a low level like 5 should get you to where you pay something like the sticker price, instead of 2x, but you should need a ridiculously high level to achieve 'buy for less than sticker price, sell for more than'.
Yep, my 'to hit' seems to increase as I add skill points, but it seems to be 'one per'? I.e. going from swords 6 to swords 9 gets me from 42% likely to hit to 45% likely .. seems like, anyway (and only careful lab testing would detect the difference. 8>.).
Maybe I just need to level up another 5 or 10 times .. Goblin Farming, anyone?
Maybe it is non-linear, but it looks to me like I'd need to be a level20 character who'd put all 60 points into 'lockpick' to get there??
Mercantile SHOULD BE (IMO) non-linear - e.g. a low level like 5 should get you to where you pay something like the sticker price, instead of 2x, but you should need a ridiculously high level to achieve 'buy for less than sticker price, sell for more than'.
Yep, my 'to hit' seems to increase as I add skill points, but it seems to be 'one per'? I.e. going from swords 6 to swords 9 gets me from 42% likely to hit to 45% likely .. seems like, anyway (and only careful lab testing would detect the difference. 8>.).
Maybe I just need to level up another 5 or 10 times .. Goblin Farming, anyone?
I am feeling this as well. Also, I originally wanted to maintain a number of skills with my character, but with the constant combat and survival difficulties I experience, I find myself forced to pump points into a few combat related skills, and let the rest stagnate save for the occasional point.
My character is level 6, so maybe it gets easier, but it's been a constant struggle. I keep getting outnumbered by opponents that each have better odds to hit me than I do to hit them, so I end up having to fight mainly in the dark using Cat's Eye (I'm playing a Warlock with a specialty in unarmed combat, which is my only high skill, though Dodge is almost as high if I wear my Rabbit's Foot amulet). I have a few points in light armor, which does not seem to help, nor does the Leatherskin spell in particular (1% DR isn't going to help any when you're just getting hit frequently for 5-10 points). Got several in Lockpicking, which is my highest noncombat skill, because I had originally wanted to be something of a roguish type as well, but that isn't happening currently, just don't have the points to get stealth, or to increase my spot hidden and skullduggery much beyond starting (they're lvl 2 each).
Some skills just don't seem to have much effect on a point per point basis, which makes one hesitant to spend points on them when they're so hard to come by (I purchased lvl 2 training in Cartography, but am generally too broke to get any other training, especially with how easy it is to get diseased even with a 25 Endurance and actively avoiding searching corpses). I hope this isn't too off topic, but it seems to tie in to this subject, and it got me thinking about these issues in general.
I'd probably focus more from the start with my next character, and try to wait and purchase training in whatever skills I could wait on from the start, and see how that works.
My character is level 6, so maybe it gets easier, but it's been a constant struggle. I keep getting outnumbered by opponents that each have better odds to hit me than I do to hit them, so I end up having to fight mainly in the dark using Cat's Eye (I'm playing a Warlock with a specialty in unarmed combat, which is my only high skill, though Dodge is almost as high if I wear my Rabbit's Foot amulet). I have a few points in light armor, which does not seem to help, nor does the Leatherskin spell in particular (1% DR isn't going to help any when you're just getting hit frequently for 5-10 points). Got several in Lockpicking, which is my highest noncombat skill, because I had originally wanted to be something of a roguish type as well, but that isn't happening currently, just don't have the points to get stealth, or to increase my spot hidden and skullduggery much beyond starting (they're lvl 2 each).
Some skills just don't seem to have much effect on a point per point basis, which makes one hesitant to spend points on them when they're so hard to come by (I purchased lvl 2 training in Cartography, but am generally too broke to get any other training, especially with how easy it is to get diseased even with a 25 Endurance and actively avoiding searching corpses). I hope this isn't too off topic, but it seems to tie in to this subject, and it got me thinking about these issues in general.
I'd probably focus more from the start with my next character, and try to wait and purchase training in whatever skills I could wait on from the start, and see how that works.
"You call me a masterless man. You are wrong. I am my own master." -Ronin
I think the percentage chance of success can be problematic with some skills, especially Pick Lock. I mean, I only have a skill of 3 thanks to some magic gloves and still I can pick most locks with little trouble. If I need six attempts that isn't really a problem. I know a single door that I find practically unpickable with my borrowed skill.
It does seem a bit unbalanced if a single (not terribly rare) magic item gives me enough skill for most situations.
Maybe if there was something like different lock "levels" and an extra penalty (think 30%) on the chance to pick it when your skill level is lower would help. Then my chance to pick many locks I find would drop to zero and I'd have to consider either learning the skill for real or using Melt Lock.
Consider that a request for Book II.
It does seem a bit unbalanced if a single (not terribly rare) magic item gives me enough skill for most situations.
Maybe if there was something like different lock "levels" and an extra penalty (think 30%) on the chance to pick it when your skill level is lower would help. Then my chance to pick many locks I find would drop to zero and I'd have to consider either learning the skill for real or using Melt Lock.
Consider that a request for Book II.
Your experiences differ from mine then, I have level 4 lockpicking and have systematically broken several picks at a time on locks that were described as "simple", and where I had 30-34% chances of success each time. Sure, if you have endless cash for picks, I suppose it's fine, otherwise it can be a little rough at times. The last thing we need is for it to be even harder.Claw wrote:I think the percentage chance of success can be problematic with some skills, especially Pick Lock. I mean, I only have a skill of 3 thanks to some magic gloves and still I can pick most locks with little trouble. If I need six attempts that isn't really a problem. I know a single door that I find practically unpickable with my borrowed skill.
It does seem a bit unbalanced if a single (not terribly rare) magic item gives me enough skill for most situations.
Maybe if there was something like different lock "levels" and an extra penalty on the chance to pick it when your skill level is lower would help. Consider that a request for Book II.
"You call me a masterless man. You are wrong. I am my own master." -Ronin
My problem isn't how hard/easy they are, it is that adding 3 skill points to pick-lock apparently makes little/no difference to the answer.
Ditto with swords. Taking my sword skill from 6 to 8 takes my 'to hit' from 13 to 14, which (near as I can tell) makes a completely undetectable difference to my chances in combat.
Ditto with swords. Taking my sword skill from 6 to 8 takes my 'to hit' from 13 to 14, which (near as I can tell) makes a completely undetectable difference to my chances in combat.
Well, that's just my point. The percentage changes, but that mostly just means you need more attempts. Even locks where I have a nominal chance of 19% for success open relatively easy for me, and I haven't broken so many picks that money would be an issue.
I believe Greylock is proving my point. So he's actually got a higher skill but the small difference between his skill and mine is so utterly negligible that statistical fluctuation has a stronger effect on his playing experience.
I believe Greylock is proving my point. So he's actually got a higher skill but the small difference between his skill and mine is so utterly negligible that statistical fluctuation has a stronger effect on his playing experience.
Those percentage numbers that show in combat are meaningless. I took a calculator and found that even though I have a 78% to hit and a monster has only a 21% chance of hitting me, the monster hit me 44% of the time and I hit it 52% of the time. This was while reloading the same battle 30 times. I fought the battle another 10 times while wielding a weapon that I had no skill with. In those battles my to hit was 57% and the monsters was still 21%. I actually hit 47% and the moster hit me 46% of the time.
Go figure...
I'm also not certain that armor class has ANY bearing. The idea is to get your damage resistance up. I've not tested this as much but I would take as much damage wearing 36 points of AC as I did wearing 14. The level of skill was exactly the same in both tests. If I cast leatherskin while wearing the 14 set, I took WAY less damage than wearing the 36 set without leatherskin. DR% is of much more importance than AC from my small sampling.
Go figure...
I'm also not certain that armor class has ANY bearing. The idea is to get your damage resistance up. I've not tested this as much but I would take as much damage wearing 36 points of AC as I did wearing 14. The level of skill was exactly the same in both tests. If I cast leatherskin while wearing the 14 set, I took WAY less damage than wearing the 36 set without leatherskin. DR% is of much more importance than AC from my small sampling.
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BasiliskWrangler
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I appreciate that you feel the percentages are meaningless, but I can assure you they are not.
When it says: "ToHit chance 70%", that variable printed "70" is the fully compiled ToHit score. Immediately after that message is displayed, there is a Random(100) roll, and it is compared to that variable, the same variable that was just printed. If it's lower than, it's a hit. Higher is a miss.
There is no further manipulation of the code, and what I described is literally the code structure used in the game. If it is statistically inaccurate, then it is beyond me. This would be a flaw in the compiler.
I could create a small program using this same code and generate 10,000 simulated hits at 50% and we can see how many hits and misses there are, if that would be of interest to you. However, in the THOUSANDS of hours I have played the game, I have never felt the percentage rolls where flawed.
When it says: "ToHit chance 70%", that variable printed "70" is the fully compiled ToHit score. Immediately after that message is displayed, there is a Random(100) roll, and it is compared to that variable, the same variable that was just printed. If it's lower than, it's a hit. Higher is a miss.
There is no further manipulation of the code, and what I described is literally the code structure used in the game. If it is statistically inaccurate, then it is beyond me. This would be a flaw in the compiler.
I could create a small program using this same code and generate 10,000 simulated hits at 50% and we can see how many hits and misses there are, if that would be of interest to you. However, in the THOUSANDS of hours I have played the game, I have never felt the percentage rolls where flawed.
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PhilosophiX
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Okay, if you flip a coin 25 times, and by an incredible fluke it comes out heads twenty five times... what's the chances of it coming out heads again? A lot of people would reckon that the odds of getting another heads would be astronomical - but it's not, it's still only 50/50 because the luck of the toss/roll has no memory, the odds are always the same each time.
Sounds like you're just having a bad run of the numbers...
Sounds like you're just having a bad run of the numbers...
What is a man, If his chief good and market of his time Be but to sleep and feed? a beast, no more. Sure, he that made us with such large discourse, Looking before and after, gave us not that capability and god-like reason to fust in us unused.
On the other hand, if you do get heads 25 times in a row, you might question the fairness of the coin (which in essence is what is going on here).PhilosophiX wrote:Okay, if you flip a coin 25 times, and by an incredible fluke it comes out heads twenty five times... what's the chances of it coming out heads again? A lot of people would reckon that the odds of getting another heads would be astronomical - but it's not, it's still only 50/50 because the luck of the toss/roll has no memory, the odds are always the same each time.
Sounds like you're just having a bad run of the numbers...
For the record I haven't noticed any particularly unusual behavior. Occasionally baddies get lucky, occasionally I do, but nothing out of a reasonable amount of variance.
While I like the simplicity of the number scale to some extent, I will agree about the sliding scale being perhaps too linear.
Take for instance 'dodge' 1% per point invested. The same applies for the first point that costs 3 to get. It would make more sense to have the first point worth more than this and each added point thereafter being worth a ever smaller gain. Likewise with something like Lore / Hide in Shadows / Mercantile / Move Silently / Pick Locks etc etc.
I suppose you could find some real life examples where it takes a lot of effort to learn something and still not be able to produce anything of great standing with your aquired knowledge.. but most of the time, a small amount of understanding/learning produces the biggest effects.
This would mean it is fairly easy to get a wellrounded basis of most skills, but you would need to spend a lot of points to focus on the skills you really want to make the most of.
Considering the number of trainers and books that can be found and read, spending 3 points on new skills seems almost frivolous and careless.
-Z-
Take for instance 'dodge' 1% per point invested. The same applies for the first point that costs 3 to get. It would make more sense to have the first point worth more than this and each added point thereafter being worth a ever smaller gain. Likewise with something like Lore / Hide in Shadows / Mercantile / Move Silently / Pick Locks etc etc.
I suppose you could find some real life examples where it takes a lot of effort to learn something and still not be able to produce anything of great standing with your aquired knowledge.. but most of the time, a small amount of understanding/learning produces the biggest effects.
This would mean it is fairly easy to get a wellrounded basis of most skills, but you would need to spend a lot of points to focus on the skills you really want to make the most of.
Considering the number of trainers and books that can be found and read, spending 3 points on new skills seems almost frivolous and careless.
-Z-
I just think the '1%' is too feeble (by miles) if that is really what it is. Through the whole game (minor spoiler?) you level up maybe 16 times, so if you put your whole life into dodge, you'd achieve a whole ~50% chance of dodging??
Ditto opening locks. I'd want something more like 5% per level invested (i.e. reduce 'to hit' by 0.95 each time .. so when you're at 90% dodging ability, the next level only get you to 90.5%, but when you are 0 the next level takes you to 5%) .. that's more like how the real world works .. 80% of the benefit for 20% of the effort, and the last 5% is REALLY tough.
Ditto opening locks. I'd want something more like 5% per level invested (i.e. reduce 'to hit' by 0.95 each time .. so when you're at 90% dodging ability, the next level only get you to 90.5%, but when you are 0 the next level takes you to 5%) .. that's more like how the real world works .. 80% of the benefit for 20% of the effort, and the last 5% is REALLY tough.