I really don't like the ending [massive spoilers]

[Elwro]

Obviously what we need is a game for which Spiderweb does the story and Basilisk does the game engine.

I'd pay good money for something like this. (Preferably party based.)


Anyway, a different point: perhaps I forgot some plot details, but if Korren is really so strong as he is in the final battle, why doesn't he take the Crux from the dwarves himself? He's easily more powerful than the usual PC at that point.

[quasimodo]

oddly, I think it's even fixable. When I get the Crux of Fire and bring it to Korren, he could say "gimme that, and I'll teleport to your location when you get to the Crux of Ages" and then you can either (a) do it, or (b) say, "uh, I don't trust you, hows about I bring it with me?" and he can say "that's dumb, what if you die?" and you can then hand it over, or say, "it's a risk I'm going to have to take because I'm not sure about your plan," or say, "try to stop me, sucka." (nefarious) to which he'd reply with a sigh, "no, no need for us to fight internally. I guess I'll just have to hope you won't die". Then proceed with game as written, and suddenly you feel a lot less like you're the dumby in the room

It's sad (to me) that this paragraph is going to get lost in the noise.

I like the game a lot, and I like the sci-fi twist at the end. I also feel that silverkitty's approach makes a little more sense.

[trinko]

Has all the whining stopped yet?

Yes, trinko, we get the idea you think the plot sucks (and that you think sci-fi and fantasy are oil-and-water genres). Nobody's forced you to play the damned game, and nobody's going to force you to to buy Book III either. If I were BW, I'm not sure I'd consider your money worth all the bitching.

Be at peace dude. We're talking about a game not the fans or the developer. I'm not insulting the designer by saying that i really felt the plot let me down, everyone makes mistakes and you can't please everyone all the time. I don't think the fans who like the plot twist are bad or dumb or evil or responsible for the gulf oil spill.

Given that you, and BW, can just avoid this topic altogether I'm not sure what either of you has to endure due to my dissatisfaction with the ending, and apparent future of this series. As a consumer I think I've got the right to post a clearly labeled topic and tell the vendor that their product has major problems. I'm not forcing anyone to read it after all. Also I'd think that the company would like the input here rather than in some flame at a game review site--people here are presumably already enthused about the game after all. If I were in their shoes I'd like to know what fraction of the customer base will be unenthused if the product takes a sci-fi twist. It's not like I'm asking for my money back or telling random people not to buy the game after all. Nor am I posting the ending in non-Baslisk controlled forums to warn potential buyers of what I perceive to be a problem.

Also note that many of my complaints have nothing to do with the sci-fi aspect. The Major Plot Holes I mentioned are not tied to the Orakur being aliens they're just as bad if the Orakur were some advanced fantasy race living in tunnels--Vanhati(sp) anyone?

Also to be honest I feel fantastically disappointed in this game. By posting here I'm removing some of the anger I have about being mislead about the whole plot of the series. Once again there's nothing evil about what's been done but it sure negated a lot of the enjoyment, read value, i got from the game.

[bitsweep]

@BW: I'm sorry to say this, but I think you seriously screwed up.
@the folks who think that expressing a dissatisfied opinion is "whining": JAM IT. I'm fully entitled to have and express my opinion, same as you.

I probably shouldn't have read this post topic, as I estimate only being somewhere between 1/2 to 2/3 of the way through the game at this point. But now that I have read this, I must admit that I have essentially LOST ALL INTEREST in this game. (At least I didn't waste any more time on it.)

I deal with technology all day, every day. I do not want to try to role-play in a technology-based world. EVER. (Yes, I really role-play in CRPG's. I let my imagination run wild while playing. I'll hit PAUSE, and spend a little time dreaming up side-stories and the like. I even wrote a short-story once based on a series of NetHack games. It is my mental escape from things.)

Thus, I do not EVER want to play a sci-fi themed RPG.

Had I known this game was sci-fi in any way, I would not have bought it.

I feel gypped, cheated.

Once I hit the sci-fi elements, I will certainly stop playing Book2.

I will not be buying Book3 under any circumstances.

This makes me terribly sad for a number of reasons:
- Basilisk is one of the few companies that makes an effort to support Linux
- I thoroughly enjoyed Book 1
- I was looking forward to finishing Book 2 (squeezing play in between writing and coding)
- The soundtracks have been marvelous.
- These games had lower system requirements & play well on my older systems
- After having gotten so enthralled in Book1, and found myself wondering where the storyline might go.

To be clear, I love science fiction. I love sci-fi novels and movies. I even love sci-fi themed action games--but not RPG's.

But I also love high fantasy. I love high fantasy RPG's. And high fantasy is what drove me to try Eschalon.

You want to make thematic cross-over games? Great. More power to you. BUT ADVERTISE THEM AS SUCH.

Pulling a "Bait N' Switch" is not doing it correctly in my opinion, it's a cheap trick, trying to wear the now threadbare guise of being clever. This is why I feel short-changed in this deal.

Between this issue, and the plot holes described by people in previous posts of this thread, I am pretty much done with Book2. I am also pretty much done with Basilisk Games--I feel I cannot trust them to deliver on what has been advertised.

My views here may seem extreme to some--"Hey, it's only a GAME dude! Get over it!" For you clueless folks: "NO IT'S NOT ONLY A GAME. It is $35 of my hard-earned money, and now, DOZENS OF HOURS of my free time essentially wasted. I will not WASTE my money or my (infinitely more valuable and limited) time on things that I don't like. Neither will I patronize companies or individuals who I feel rob me of enjoyment of that precious time."

I know that most folks here won't care, but I felt I owed an explanation to BW. He has put a lot of sweat and effort into his games and his company, and I appreciate that. He also actively makes an effort to support Linux--as I only run Linux, I really appreciate that. Given this, he deserves to know how he has alienated, seriously disappointed, and now lost a formerly enthusiastic customer.

Thanks for Book1.

Farewell.

[trinko]

Obviously what we need is a game for which Spiderweb does the story and Basilisk does the game engine.

Have you played Avernum 6? I think the game engine is as good as Book II, better actually. The graphics are not as good but much better than the old Avernum graphics. I think the game engine is better because of the navigate to feature, click on a point on the ground and your party travels there without you having to move the mouse all the time, and the ability to have multiple party members. Also in Avernum it's a lot easier to get around and the big map lets you figure out where you are, both of which are serious problems in Eschelon.

I also think that Jeff Vogels game are a better value than Eschelon due to the huge amount of content--quests, races,NPCs etc. But Eschelon is a good value, ie it's not overpriced and it delivers a good RPG experience.

Now the dearth of RPG games on the Mac means you should buy both Avernum and Book I, Book II I'm obviously not so enthused about, so don't get on my case for dissing Eschelon. They're different products by different vendors but they're both good.

[Elwro]

I probably shouldn't have read this post topic, as I estimate only being somewhere between 1/2 to 2/3 of the way through the game at this point. But now that I have read this, I must admit that I have essentially LOST ALL INTEREST in this game. (At least I didn't waste any more time on it.)
(...)
I do not EVER want to play a sci-fi themed RPG.

Had I known this game was sci-fi in any way, I would not have bought it.

I feel gypped, cheated.
(...)

Frankly, having finished the game, I'd say -- with all due respect -- that that's an overreaction. There's a decidedly single-digit number of SF-related objects in the game. You only see them at the very end.

Once I hit the sci-fi elements, I will certainly stop playing Book2.

I bet you won't. Will you muster such strength of will as to force yourself to quit right before the final fight?

Don't give up on the game just yet

[IJBall]

I find it very interesting that a handful of people are complaining about being made to take the Crux of Fire into Talushorn. Some suggest Korren and Erubor safeguard the Crux in case the Taurax stop you and take the gemstone. Fair enough I say. However, I don't remember any of you complaining about being made to take the Crux of Ages into the Goblin Citadel in Book I.

Can I ask why this is? I'm genuinely curious.

I'll try to tackle this:

I think the reason why it's not an issue in Book I is because, frankly, you had no support personnel in Book I. Yeah, sure, later on you discover you had a brother, but you make it through most of Book I without knowing about him, and by the time you get to him, he's no help to you anyway. And there's no one else really there who can help in a meaningful way get the Crux of Ages to Bastion Spire.

So, in Book I, you have to do it alone, and you have to take it through The Goblin Citadel because that's your only route to Bastion Spire.

IOW, in the context of Book I's plot, it makes perfect sense.

(There's an additional suppositional element on my part which makes this make even more sense in Book I - and that is that I suspect having the Crux of Ages in your possession the whole time prevents Gramuk's attempts to locate you or cloud your mind. There's nothing textual in the game that spells that out in Book I, but it's always been the subtextual supposition on my part about the developments in that game...)

In Book II, however, because you do have a supporting crew (that you choose to join up with), and because there's a mechanism to get the Crux of Fire to its destination without you having to take it through all of Talushorn yourself - and, additionally, having your supporting crew bring it in this way avoids the whole 'inventory check' issue that Elwro stumbled across - I just think the plot would work better that way.

Now, having said all that, I am definitely not in the camp that's too "disappointed" with Book II's plot overall, nor does the Skiffy plot development at the end put me off particularly because it's so peripheral to the main happenings in the game.

I would agree that Book II is probably a little weaker, plotwise, than Book I - but I figured that was likely to be the case going in because I think the main focus in Book II went into game engine development (which I think led to a little bit of short-changing plot and atmospheric elements), and frankly I have no problem with that because those game engine advances were needed.

As long as the development focus shifts back more to the latter (plot and atmospherics) in Book III, I have no real problems here.

Anyway, that's my $0.02.
But I'm certainly not in the "wildly disappointed" or "put off camp" at all...

[Kreador Freeaxe]

While it's a bit more subtle, Chronometers, Compasses and kegs of black powder are not something you expect in a standard high fantasy. These are across the usual technology divide, so there have been hints that there's more here than you'd find in your average fantasy. And there have been a lot of hints that the Orakur were not your usual odd creatures (most especially for those of us who hang out here, clearly, and read the creature profiles). I'm not convinced that anything the "trapped" Orakur in Talushorn tells us can be trusted, as it seems like a set-up, so I think BW has a few more tricks up his sleeve than some are giving him credit for.

But, you can't please everybody, and you shouldn't try. I agree that some of the elements in the main storyline break the RPG covenant of letting the player at least FEEL like they have a choice and are affecting the outcome (storytelling in interactive media is a much trickier beast than in narrative). Silverkitty made an interesting and valuable (I think) suggestion in that direction. I hope BW learns from that as he develops book III.

[slm]

Obviously what we need is a game for which Spiderweb does the story and Basilisk does the game engine.

Have you played Avernum 6? I think the game engine is as good as Book II, better actually. ...

I have played all the Avernums (and Exile before that). I probably misused the term "game engine" when I meant mostly graphics. I prefer the whole graphical experience of Eschalon, but there is nothing wrong with the graphics in Avernum.

I would say the graphics (and music and sound effects) are better in Eschalon, the story is better in Avernum, and the game play is a wash - each has strengths and weaknesses. Your mileage may vary.

My real point is that a Spiderweb/Basilisk co-production would kick some serious butt.

[Elwro]

Nah. What hero would want to take the risk that when he's entering the Citadel, Gramuk is not there, because he has finally figured out where the Crux was and had already gone to get it?

But more seriously, there are two aspects I'd like to point out:
1) In Eschalon 2, you are sent on what seems to be a really stupid quest most likely right after Kuudad. What is it, 20% through the main quest? In Eschalon 1, you're sent to the Citadel a lot later on iirc. In Book 2 you have 80% of the game for your own foolishness to sink in.
2) Book 1's plot contains one element -- the Potion of Plot Device, as it is sometimes referred to -- around which a really brilliant idea is developed. OK, if not brilliant, then I think at least decidedly original. Yes, it's the amnesia trick... but for once it's done right. When I learned about the details from my own note, I was really surprised. When I think of Book 1's plot, I think of this idea, and I forget why exactly I couldn't have gone directly to Bastion Spire with the Crux. I'm sorry to say so, but Book 2's plot contains exactly 0 original or innovative ideas, that's the problem. No surprises apart from the Alien WTF at the end. It's a good game, and worth its price, for all reasons different from the plot. (The stat system, with two good new skills, for starters.)

[Elveronion]

bla bla...

Thanks for Book1.

Farewell.

bw, let me handle this ok??

BITSWEEP, YOU COME HERE TO DISRESPECT BW JUST BECAUSE YOU DO NOT LEIK THE STORY???? GO FUCK YOURSELF!!!!!!!!!!!!

yes, i am a fanboy of basilisk games. i admit. but even if i wasn't, i'd still say that you shouldn't enter another man's home and piss on his rug because you don't like the colors.

why don't you try to do what bw does, and then put up with fuckholes like youself. farewell, bitsweep!

[IJBall]

I think the reason why it's not an issue in Book I is because, frankly, you had no support personnel in Book I. Yeah, sure, later on you discover you had a brother, but you make it through most of Book I without knowing about him, and by the time you get to him, he's no help to you anyway. And there's no one else really there who can help in a meaningful way get the Crux of Ages to Bastion Spire.

Erubor could of looked after the Crux of Ages in Shadowmirk, so that if you die in Crakamir the Goblins wouldn't be able to reclaim the gemstone.

Actually, now that I think about it, with the way Book I is set up, there is nothing preventing you from stashing the Crux, going to The Citadel and wasting Gramuk, and then coming back to The Citadel with the Crux a second time after you've cleared the place out, to complete the game.

The difference is, in Book II, those gates on Level 4 of Talushorn close behind you, so you're totally stuck if you entered without the Crux (or the Looking Glass). (Note: I haven't gotten a chance to check if this is still the case under v1.04...)

I think this is the kind of thing people are talking about vis a vis the plot of Book I vs. Book II - Book I was set up in such a way that there were more options for gameplay choices.

[sirdilznik]

Boy this thread is bringing out some bad qualities in people. I think some people need to step back and take a deep breath (also possibly switch to decaf).

Frankly people have a right to their own opinion especially about something they purchased. Passing judgement on the ending of a game you haven't actually finished yourself on the other hand seems a bit like jumping the gun, but whatever.

Personally I have no problem with the twist and the bits and pieces of sci-fi that reveal themselves at the very end. Then again I've always liked sci-fi just as much as fantasy, if not more. That aside many classic RPGs, including quite a number I liked a lot, blended elements of sci-fi into a mostly fantasy setting. Also it's hard to tell just how much sci-fi, if any, will be in the final instalment of the series.

I like that we really have little idea of where this is going in Book III. Sure there were some things in the plot that don't exactly add up, but on the other hand I wouldn't expect everything to make perfect sense since the story is not finished. Personally I was quite suspicious of Korren right from the get go and I'm not exactly going to take the dying Orakur at his word either.

It's impossible to make a game to please everyone, heck I probably criticize certain things too much myself. I was fine with the cliffhanger ending, I feel it's fairly appropriate to have a cliffhanger ending in the middle part of a trilogy. I'm actually pretty excited about finding out how this all concludes. It's going to be a rough couple of years waiting in anticipation of Book III. To each his own I guess.

[CrazyBernie]

I'm with you, sirdilznik. People need to back away from the computers... and maybe go outside for a few minutes. Fresh air does wonders for the brain... provided there's not too much smog in it. 0_o

There's a whole lot of overreacting based on an assumption... even if it was an educated guess. I suppose not many people have played games/watched movies/read books where magic in some cases becomes so advanced that it seems like (to us, not the characters... anything that can't be explained is usually considered magic) technology. I've witnessed it more often than I can recall. Jumping on the "they're little grey-skinned guys... OMGWTFBBQALIENSLOLWUT!" train is a bit premature, IMHO. The game isn't called "Close Encounters of the Eschalon Kind."

I also see that it's harder for some people than others to "fill in the blanks" in regards to "plot holes." I'm not going to bother to give a full-on opinion in the matter, except to agree that there could be some fine tuning that was missed out on during development. Keep in mind that Book II ran way past its intended development cycle and when that happens it's often that things get overlooked. Many a time I've played a game and been left scratching my head for a moment, and then created my own rationalized reason and kept playing.

There's nothing wrong with offering some constructive criticism... just keep in mind that when you do so, you always run the risk of starting a war... and not everyone can keep it civilized like me n' Evnissyen

@ Bitsweep: Don't sell yourself and the game short based on what someone else says. When are the critics ever right?

@ Elveron: I'm sure BW appreciates your dedication, but 1) It was a little uncalled for, and 2) It probably doesn't help anyone, including/especially BW.

That all said, you can be sure that BW will take as much of the constructive criticism that he can weed out of the flames, and put it to good use. All I can recommend is that you cut the "little guys" a teeny more slack... it's one thing to bitch about a AAA title with 50+ people working on for having huge issues, but attacking what's basically a one-man show for not making it perfect is a bit.... much. I've seen some pretty harsh comments that have stepped outside the bounds of "constructive." Be nice... mmmmkay?